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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

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Why is smoke from the exhaust such a big deal? How does it put the plane at a disadvantage? Just curious to know.

And why don't we have an alternative to the RD-93? What about WS-10A?
 
Why is smoke from the exhaust such a big deal? How does it put the plane at a disadvantage? Just curious to know.

And why don't we have an alternative to the RD-93? What about WS-10A?

i am not sure but it has to do with a/c signature which can be detected by ground radar/SAMs or even the adversary a/c.

unfortunately i missed the parade so i didnt see the flypast. i thought the smoke had to do with the engine intakes which were changed to reduce this!
can any expert comment!
 
i am not sure but it has to do with a/c signature which can be detected by ground radar/SAMs or even the adversary a/c.

unfortunately i missed the parade so i didnt see the flypast. i thought the smoke had to do with the engine intakes which were changed to reduce this!
can any expert comment!

I believe the smoke issue is to do with WVR combat. a smoke trail makes it easier to spot a enemy aircraft.

And it is generally caused by engine design in addition to fuel impurities. The DSI inlets are not related to this.
 
I believe the smoke issue is to do with WVR combat. a smoke trail makes it easier to spot a enemy aircraft.

And it is generally caused by engine design in addition to fuel impurities. The DSI inlets are not related to this.

thanks keys
 
the 1st 50 will have chinese radar and avionics + the SD-10 BVR, the subsequent a/c will be equipped with either french or italian radar and avionics with a choice of US or french BVR. a lot is under evaluation and negotiation so one cannot really comment - remember only 8 a/c out of 150 have been delivered or about 5%. so lets wait and see what really transpires.

Well thxs for your reply, but that still doesnt tell me what detection range for the klj-7 radar is, the first batch will be using this radar.

We already have 8 jf17 and hope to have another 8 by the end of the year, so that takes us to 16 and from 2009 we will be rolling out 20/25 a year. So by 2010 we should have the first 50, so whY the two year pause before we introduce the second batch?

Second batch to be introduced from 2012 with European avionics's.

Time scale that is being laid out for the jf17 is too long, by 2015 we would have to think about other options and what poses a threat or concern at that time.

Pakistans concern is india, and india is spending large sums on sophisticated aircrafts in mass number. Jf17 is not a reliable long term choice against indian mk30 and new variants, now even america is getting in bed with india and trying to win iaf contracts.

Jf17 should be a short term solution and planning and studies should be carried out for developing a 4.5 gen aircraft indigenously, be it a joint venture with china or even may be iran as they have their own project and am sure we can learn a bit of them.

Its pointless us trying to rely on america or china as best policy is to be self sufficent.
 
Does anyone have any reliable info on jf17's radar, like whats the detection range etc and is it klj-7 0r klj-10 radar?. Lots of comfusing articles on the net.

As per JANES International Defence Review, which has been quoted in open sources, the KLJ-7 detection range for targets with a RCS of up to 3 m 2 is 75 km or 35 km in look-down mode. Surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km.
 
Well thxs for your reply, but that still doesnt tell me what detection range for the klj-7 radar is, the first batch will be using this radar.

We already have 8 jf17 and hope to have another 8 by the end of the year, so that takes us to 16 and from 2009 we will be rolling out 20/25 a year. So by 2010 we should have the first 50, so whY the two year pause before we introduce the second batch?

Second batch to be introduced from 2012 with European avionics's.

Time scale that is being laid out for the jf17 is too long, by 2015 we would have to think about other options and what poses a threat or concern at that time.

Pakistans concern is india, and india is spending large sums on sophisticated aircrafts in mass number. Jf17 is not a reliable long term choice against indian mk30 and new variants, now even america is getting in bed with india and trying to win iaf contracts.

Jf17 should be a short term solution and planning and studies should be carried out for developing a 4.5 gen aircraft indigenously, be it a joint venture with china or even may be iran as they have their own project and am sure we can learn a bit of them.

Its pointless us trying to rely on america or china as best policy is to be self sufficent.

Information regarding the KLJ-10 is somewhat scarce (not surprisingly)
However you may use the APG-66 as the lower end of the scale as it has been put on the record as being superior to that.
 
Well, I want to know, if RD-93 is a gasturbine?
As we know in gasturbine use natural gas as fuel. What about in case of WS-13 <-- Is it also a gasturbine?

I also would like to know if RD-93 is a derivative of RD-33OVT or RD-33

I think Mig-29 experts could give us detailed information of RD-33/RD-33OVT.
 


I think trail was made purposely. The trail has mostly shown up only on the parade days. That is my assumption. No way in the heck.. can it release that much smoke!
 
U.S., Russia, China Vying To Sell Fighters in Asia
By P. PARAMESWARAN, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 23 Mar 11:47 EDT (07:47 GMT) Print | Email

WASHINGTON - The United States is bracing for tough competition from Russia and China as cash-flush Asian economies look up to the trio for a new breed of fighter jets to beef up their air forces, experts say.

Japan, India, Australia and South Korea are keen to have the most modern, fifth-generation, jet fighters while Southeast Asian nations such as Malaysia and Indonesia are reportedly eyeing fourth-generation fighters from China.

With Asia powering ahead with military modernization and capability growth, the United States wants to maintain leadership in defense sales in the region attracted by low cost offerings from Russia and China, experts said.

"The Americans and Russians are competing hard for the Asian fighter aircraft market, but everybody is also watching to see how aggressively the Chinese will be entering this market," Richard Fisher, an expert with the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center, told AFP.

The tight competition comes as Asian economies move ahead "much more aggressively" to upgrade their air defense capabilities, he said.

"It's not quite right to say an arms race, but there is an arms jog in Asia," Fisher said.

The United States is currently the sole producer of fifth-generation fighters - the F-22s and F-35s. Export of F-22s is barred by law while the lower cost F-35s have just started flight testing ahead of deployment around 2012.

Russia and China's fifth-generation fighter offerings could well be on the market between 2015 and 2020, a time frame experts say is not very far away in terms of defense planning.

"I don't want to get into the numbers because they were given to me in confidence but the price the Russians are estimating for their fifth-generation fighter is substantially less than the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) and substantially less than F-22," U.S. aviation expert Reuben Johnson told a Washington forum last week on "challenges to the Asian air power balance."

He said the Russian arms industry was grappling with high production costs.

Russian weapon exports to China have also plunged as Beijing became more wary over Moscow's sales of its most advanced weaponry to neighbor India, Johnson said.

"What is really the challenge is we have two very large countries, China and India, whose economies are booming and who are buying lots of hardware and we are looking at a situation down the road where they are going to have very, very sophisticated air forces," he said.

Russia had already teamed up with India to co-develop and co-produce a version of Moscow's fifth-generation fighter, but Fisher said that given the Indian preference of diversifying its weapons sources, it was possible New Delhi could purchase a U.S. fifth-generation fighter at some point.

The United States is also vying with Russia and others for a $12 billion contract to sell 126 fourth-generation fighter jets to the Indian air force.

The competition from Russia could prod the Americans to lift an export ban on F-22s, eyed by Australia and Japan, top U.S. allies in the region, experts said.

U.S Defense Secretary Robert Gates hinted during a recent Australian visit that Congress may be asked to reconsider the ban.

"It is imperative that the United States consider selling some version of the F-22 to maintain a strong deterrent posture in Asia," Fisher said.

"I would say categorically that Japan requires a capability of the level of the F-22 in order to sustain a sufficient position to deter China," he said.

Japan and another key U.S. ally, South Korea, have indigenous fifth-generation fighter programs but their transition to full scale development is uncertain.

Australia is also in the midst of a debate over the future of its fighter force.

Canberra recently said it would go ahead with the previous government's decision to acquire 24 US F/A-18 fighter jets for $5.6 billion.

It also may review whether to purchase all of the F-35s the previous government committed to, or include F-22s in the package as well, experts said.

"There is a considerable private lobby and even some bipartisan interest in trying to purchase the F-22 because of fear of Russian sales to Southeast Asia and China's looming challenge," Fischer said.

Singapore, with one of the most powerful air forces in the region, is seen as probably a good potential customer for the F-35s.

The U.S.-Russia competition for the fourth-generation fighters is expected to be intense - but China is emerging as a wild card.

"I would say within the next five years, China will be quite competitive at the low cost end of the fourth-generation market," Fisher said.

Pakistan, for example, is co-developing a very low cost fourth-generation FC-1 fighter with China and is very likely going to be the first export customer for China's larger J-10 fighter as well, experts said.

China is expected to "market aggressively" to Malaysia, Indonesia and Myanmar the same two fighters as well as the KJ-200 AWACS aircraft to the Southeast Asian region, Fisher said.

Malaysia and Indonesia have purchased a relatively small number of advanced Russian Sukhoi fighters.

U.S., Russia, China Vying To Sell Fighters in Asia - Defense News

Slightly off topic but related to JF-17.
Regards,
 
It's interesting that the West believes that the Chinese will (relatively soon) have 5th generation fighters on the arms market. I take it as a hint that PAF is working on gaining 5th generation systems...and the West sniffed the floating hints.

First hint; J-10 is not a fluid export fighter, and the same applies to the JXX/J-14 - it is an exclusive domestic project for PLAAF. Hence for any export potential the Chinese would need an export-driven aircraft.

Second hint; over the last few years the PAF has matched or worked towards matching all key IAF capabilities - including projected ones such as MRCA. Something as big as 5th generation fighters wll not go unnoticed by PAF.

Third hint; funny how Saudi Arabia & Egypt may not be able to get JSF; how Turkish experts still talk about a more home-grown fighter; how Algeria & Malaysia are looking at alternatives to building their war-machines AND what we know about Pakistan.

Fourth hint; based on the above...the money is there, the partners are there, the customers are there...very likely the fighter itself will follow up.
 
Very well said. If every thing goes well what you have stated would be on ground in about three to four years.
 
Well, I want to know, if RD-93 is a gasturbine?
As we know in gasturbine use natural gas as fuel. What about in case of WS-13 <-- Is it also a gasturbine?

I also would like to know if RD-93 is a derivative of RD-33OVT or RD-33

I think Mig-29 experts could give us detailed information of RD-33/RD-33OVT.

Hon Batman, gas turbines donot necessarily use natural gas as fuel. Gas turbine merely refers to the fact the hot gases are used to derive the turbine blades, where as steam turbines use steam and wind turbines use power from the wind.

Nearly all the refineries that I have worked, used gas turbines to generate power. The last one used fuel oil ( Furnace Oil in Pakistan) as gas turbine fuel. The fuel is injected into a combustion chamber and the resulting hot gases push thru turbine blades, thereby runing the supercharger for the air used in the combustion chamber as well as turning the alternator.

I also had the opportunity of visiting the Rolls Royce plant in East Kilbirde near Glasgow during my brief tenure at the National Engineering Laboratories and have seen the aircraft engines being assembled.

Early jet engines were pure jets but now nearly all the aircraft engines use some kind of gas turbines. Even the turbo props use turbines. While no expert on aircraft engines, it is safe to say that unless it is described as a ramjet or pure jet; an aircraft engine would be a sophisticated gas turbine. Thus RD-93 is a gas turbine using Jet A-1 ( a purified kerosene) as fuel.

Regret to sound like a lecturer, but I have the bad habit of not accepting an incorrect statement.
 


I think trail was made purposely. The trail has mostly shown up only on the parade days. That is my assumption. No way in the heck.. can it release that much smoke!

The smoke was black in colour which meant that it was indeed the engine exhaust. Other wise wouldnt colours be used if it was done purposely as was in the case of sherdils performing with the T-37 or 35 (i'm not sure about the model.):undecided:
 
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