JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF

[Tipu7]

While considering JFT programs I believe its real use fulness depends on package it offers.
Its cost effective and offer decent strength with out fear of sanctions. But it must be kept in mind that JFT should form the Back Bone of PAF, not spear head.

In case of air conflict JFT will not be in front lines, it will be Falcon or Flanker if integrated. Reason is JFT lack features of air superiority fighter. and PAF right now plan to operate (if Flanker is not included) only two type of air crafts of similar category(light). IAF on the other hand operates 5 air crafts of three different categories (light, medium,heavy) ........... so in my opinion it will be a suicidal approach if PAF didn't opt for any Third type of air craft of Heavy Category.

By 2019-2021 PAF must consists of following air crafts, in my opinion PAF will neutralize IAF quality edge if it shaped it self as

1:Jf17 Thunders

2: F16 Falcons

3: Su35 Flanker E

4: XX naval strike air craft


Jf17 Thunder

Firstly JFT is going fine. However its Blk2 is disappointing as it followed slight increase in load capacity and avionics only and operate same radar, engine and weapon package............ much needed air refueling capability is YET to integrate.
It got 7 seven hard points. Among them three will be reserve for sniper pod+fuel tanks. Remaining it can carry two BVR and two WVR air to air missile. or it has to sacrifice its WVR missile for air to ground bombs. This is very disappointing as their is not enough space to arm JFT fully. PAF needs to reduce order of Blk 2 upto 50 air crafts and increase order of Blk 3 upto 150 air crafts inorder to achieve the required target of 250 air crafts. Blk 3 must exhibit significant improvements over current air crafts as AESA radar+9 Hard points+WS10 engine (or AL31 if possible)+improved avionics+Load capacity+Improved EW suits+Improved weapon package+Improved counter measures. If Blk 3 is not going to integrate all such attributes then sorry to say, it will be disappointing just like Blk 2. If yes then it will carry more than enough punch and will be able to stand against any non fifth generation air craft. 100 Blk2+150Blk3 is handsome back bone power.

F16 Falcon

PAF right now operates almost 78 Falcons. Among them 18 are Blk 50/52+ while remaining are upgraded to same or MLU standard. PAF is looking to get back the sanctioned F16 from USA. This will increase the number of F16 upto 90 in our arsenal. If PAF is looking to increase the number of Falcons up to 108 then it might be looking for more 2nd hand F16 from West or USA or may be (if money available) will go for more blk 50/52+ from Lockheed Martin directly. Any way Falcon status in PAF is satisfactory and in case of conflict it will be a air craft with capability to shot down any thing IAF can take off in sky at better chances. (except Rafale of course)

Su35 Flanker

A deal which was very unlikely in past, changed to hoax and finally in reality. Now the deal is in second stage of initial talks. PAF have never operated a Heavy air craft of Flanker caliber. It will be a new experience and will provide diversity to PAF doctrine. Although there are still minor chances that Su35S will get paint scheme of PAF but still the possibility exist. Its upto budget how many Su35 Pakistan will pursue in initial batch and how many in later stages. But the badly needed gap of Air superiority fighter will be filled well by this air craft. For now atleast 36 such units are required and these air crafts are superior to any air craft in IAF current or near future arsenal. Its better to use them as Air superiority or Heavy strike air craft instead of dedicated naval strike air craft.

XX Naval strike air craft

PN do not operate any Fighter squadron. Its PAF job from day one to full fill required task for navy. Judging from economic conditions, its very unlikely that PN will have any dedicated air strike wing of its own. PAF Minhas Squadron just revived a boast by replacing F7 with JFT Blk2, but still this is not complete answer. As JFT lack enough range and pay load. more over it is inferior to Mig29K and also lack enough defensive armaments. If budget is available then PAF must arm it self with pure Naval strike air craft. May be F18 Hornet, May be J16 Flying Shark, May be Su34 Platypus it all depends on foreign relations and military set ups. But need is there and all above mentioned air crafts are superior than Mig29K or Naval variant of Tejas India may develop in coming years.

Despite of all fighter fleet, AWACS and Air Tankers are also crucial and serve as FORCE multipliers........ in near future there is no urgent need of buying any new system......

 

[Jammer]

Very well written. Thank you.

 

[Mukhtaar ka Waar]

Anyone who can written about comparison between Su 35 and F 35? and also if possible Chinese J 10 ,

also including that whats progressed made in jf 17's fourth generation production? second now currently working day by day ... thirds ready to move on.... Fourth?

in IDF we can easily identify that whats going on about RAW activities... IDF mentioned all there operations... just focused on Pakistan's Baluchistan and China's Sink-yank.... i also member of IDF... such a fool admin of IDF

 

[araz]

Either contribute something positive to the discussion or keep quite, there is no reason to insult/attack anyone. In my opinion Mastan has a very valid point, he is not against JF17, but his argument is regardless of how good your equipment is if it does not meet the challenge posed by the opponent's equipment, it's not going to serve it's purpose.

My Audi Q5 is very good for my daily commute, is comfortable, looks good and all but I can't pitch it against a Porsche or Lambo or Ferrari.......get my drift?

Bhai.
I will not delve into personalities so that part of your post will remain unanswered at least by me.
Now as to equipment let us first set the record straight. Our finances only allow us these Pĺatforms in numbers to replace the legacy fighters that we have in the numbers that we have. You have a better solution come out with it. Indian Government is rightly cringing at the 200million per pop price of Rafale.Replace 36 RAFALES with the rest of your JFTs and what structure does your airforce have. Then there are additional considerations of setup and training which will again be costly and set you back.
Step 2. Replace your need for 150 fighters for 3 billion with F 16s bl. 52@ 80 to 100 million a pop. You will get roughly 40 fighters. And in case of war sanctions apply anda useless fleet ready to be picked on the ground(after an initial 2 weeks or so of war time use of spares).
Third replace JFT with J10B @ 40 to 50 million a pop. You are buying unknown tech with unknown response no significant increase in range and loiter time and 2 additional hard points. Setup time and cost incurred need to be added on and you have half the fleet to do the job.
Inability to do the job: Often highlighted by detractors as a weakness of JFT. Why? What is the basis for such arguments? We will only be dealing with an adversary next door not thousands of miles away. Secondly for a machine designed for general purpose duties and not specialized rolez it seems unfair to then criticize it for not being able to carry out those roles.
A. Number of BVRs.... 2vs 4. Believe me in the sub continental theatre if you think someone is going to go to war with a truckload of MRAAMs then you need to have your head examined. Once you have engaged your enemy fired your shots there will be no further time on station and it will be back to base. So even the glorious MKI will not have more than 4 AMRAAMs for A2A setup with 2 WVRAAMS. The current JFT will fulfill that role adequately with the load it is cureently carrying.
B. Inabiliy to integrate IRST onboard: This is a problem with many smaller planes. Of all the objections the most valid one is the lack of a chin mounted station for a POD. This is being addressed and we should see the results soon
I will keep adding to it as I think appropriate or things come to my mind.
A

 

[Jaam92]

still need more then JF 17 to counter our Rival
We need to improve our Fleet of F-16
F-16 is useless for me without AESA Radar
Projected block 3 of Thunder could do better for PAF but block 1 and 2 not what PAF really needed

 

[Imran Khan]

still need more then JF 17 to counter our Rival
We need to improve our Fleet of F-16
F-16 is useless for me without AESA Radar
Projected block 3 of Thunder could do better for PAF but block 1 and 2 not what PAF really needed

something heavy now its time to move on from single engine tinny birds

 

[alimobin memon]

if im not wrong even if we buy heavy fighter according to articles and study I did please dont ask me for source im sharing what I know, that is that if Jf17 and su 30 mki both are on bvr engagement to each other and manage to fire couple to each other there is little chance of survival and even if they survive the full thrust to power the engines for manuevers would already empty or spend lot of fuel for them to re engage many targets at once. this is not old style wvr which used to be based on dog fights to evade a missile is quite exhaustive work let alone active radar guided missiles. I remember reading that in Iraq war when attacking mig 25's were targeted by f15's using BVR it took minutes and full thrust to evade the missile and eventually they went back to bases only because of the operational range issue. after every 5 to 8 min engagement which requires lot of thrust and turns to attack targets the fighters of nato were being refuelled to do more sorties. so my point is let suppose heavy fighters fire their bvr's and jf17 to doesnt these both fighter will need to be refuelled againt and again to keep fighting in skies ? Well I think all the fighters will fire bvr and use evasive manuevers and go back to base even before they come in wvr only if there is refueller. I may be wrong but that is my perception.

By the way can anyone tell me exact specs of jf17 I mean turn rate and rate of climb stuff many sites there are but not reliable I want to know about range, mission range, turn rate, t/w and service ceiling + Speed is it mach 1.6 or mach 1.8 ?

 

[aliyusuf]

By the way can anyone tell me exact specs of jf17 I mean turn rate and rate of climb stuff many sites there are but not reliable I want to know about range, mission range, turn rate, t/w and service ceiling + Speed is it mach 1.6 or mach 1.8 ?

Both figures are correct but depends on what Mach scale model is used.
The following will (I hope) clear this up for all those who quibble about the 1.6 and 1.8 number (once for and all).

The Absolute Mach Number
JF-17 max speed = 1960kmph = 1218mph
Speed of Sound at Sea Level = 760mph = Mach 1
Hence using this scale JF-17 is Mach 1.6

The Local Mach Number
Now in the aviation industry Mach number is not calculated through such a simplistic model and is more attuned towards what is called the "Local Mach Number". Because a fighter will go super-sonic and a sonic boom would occur based on the local speed of sound and not what it is at sea level. Sound speed steadily reduces with increase in altitude due to lowering of pressure and variation of temperature.

From the altitude of 36,090 ft. (this is called the Tropopause) till up to 100,000 ft. (this region is called the Stratosphere) temperature and air pressure remains constant at 56.5 Fahrenheit and 75.99 cm of Mercury respectively. The only thing varying in this region of the atmosphere is the %age of Oxygen in the air which steadily begins to decrease from 41,000 ft. and above. At this region the speed of sound (Mach 1) remains constant at 573Knotts i.e. 659.39mph. 99% of Fighter Jet Engines register their max speed in this region (36,090ft. to 41,000 ft.) due to the optimal mix of reduced air pressure (less drag) and sufficient %Oxygen for combustion (engine power). Hence this is the max speed region of the Fighter planes and Mach 1 here means 659.39mph.

So on this scale JF-17 is Mach 1.8 and it is a more accurate estimate of its Mach number.
Because even the max speed of the F-16 is 1350mph and using this method you get Mach 2.05 which is the correct value.

 

[Syed Hussain]

i hate every thunder whom is without IFR

You are going to hate first two blocks for ever :p

 

[Imran Khan]

You are going to hate first two blocks for ever :p

i wish they will convert them to IFR

 

[LonE_WolF]

i wish they will convert them to IFR

don't worry Imran bhai, you will start seeing thunders with IFR probes from next year

 

[Syed Hussain]

How can a price tag of 35 million for home produced fighter be called "low cost"? specially with the lowest end of capability it provi

i wish they will convert them to IFR

I too wish for a lot of things... but both block, which mean 100 units, are only "good for patriotism"...!

 

[araz]

How can a price tag of 35 million for home produced fighter be called "low cost"? specially with the lowest end of capability it provi

I too wish for a lot of things... but both block, which mean 100 units, are only "good for patriotism"...!

Welcome Mr Expert. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on how JFT is only good for patriotism.
A

 

[AliWaqar]

Blk 3 must exhibit significant improvements over current air crafts as AESA radar+9 Hard points+WS10 engine (or AL31 if possible)+improved avionics+Load capacity+Improved EW suits+Improved weapon package+Improved counter measures. If Blk 3 is not going to integrate all such attributes then sorry to say, it will be disappointing just like Blk 2. If yes then it will carry more than enough punch and will be able to stand against any non fifth generation air craft. bhai g AGar JF he sab requirments pori kar dy ga to J10B Or SU35 OR j31 Buy karny ka faida ?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Most of the posters---due to a lack of information---or too much zeal----are blinded by their passion for the air force.

A knowledgeable poster would question---why would IAF fight from the position of strength of the PAF and why not from its own position of strength---.

I don't want to write up an order of battle for the IAF to prove my point.