JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF

[Irfan Baloch]

took me a while to open up this article and read through. I am reluctant visitor of aeronautics section due to little to no understanding of this world, be it the military tactics or the plane types and their roles.

I have said it enough time that I am sure apologetic explanation must be sounding like a broken record and annoying so please forgive me.

that said. let me offer my uninvited review anyway


@Horus, as usual nicely edited, presented and touched up

@Oscar, good over all article and presentation.


niceties out of the way.

let me share my gripes now (but forgive me for late entry and in case I missed your explanations in the following pages)
reader is taken in depth through the Indian strategy, its excuse to attack its primary & secondary target selection.

a broad and general counter strategy from Pakistani defense side is also presented well.

but what is missed out is specifically detailing why JF-17 is meant for PAF? it would’ve been good if was discussed as a counter weapon to foil attacks on alleged sites in Muridke or preventive strikes on PAF bases by Indian airforce

it deserved almost same amount of depth in explaining why and how this single engine multirole fighter with modest payload but good variety of weapons and decent electronic package would counter Indian air, ground and naval forces.

. if the reader ignores the title and the early paragraphs which mention JF-17 then the article is a broad speech at macro level about Indo-Pak military strategy suitable as a speech in National defense college or a defense seminar.

I, as a reader felt teased with a little appetizer and kept waiting for \ full course in a multiple course meal but it never arrived. I was hopping for 1 or 2 short paragraphs where its diverse payload will get a short mention on how it will deploy its long and short range weapons against different threats while protecting Pakistani airspace in direct confrontation with IAF or as a supporting role to PN and PA, I won’t say I feel cheated but its like the favorite candy or ice cream was snatched from me the moment I started enjoying it.

disappointed in you @Horus, you should have let @Ocsar post this, so he can get the positives ratings.


anyhow, @Oscar ,it was beautifully written and i look forward to read more of your work.

Horus goes through the pain of editing , reviewing and formatting it for our viewing pleasures. it is a thankless job which only we know he does voluntarily and as for ratings hehe our ratings are his ratings and his are ours . the ticks dont mean much as Oscar explained. your comments and feedback is our real treat
thanks

 

[rockstarIN]

What kind of 'signature' are we looking for ? EM ? Data link between F-22 and its AMRAAM ? The F-22's radar will be in LPI mode, which will make it extremely difficult for anyone's RWR to secure and secure long enough to triangulate. Data link between F-22 and its AMRAAM will be in burst, not continuous.

@gambit

What about Missile approach warning system? What is the usual range of such system like Spectra?

Even if RWR will not work since with F-22 LPI mode, a missile launch will immediately be detected by the opposing air crafts thus compromising F-22 position. The F-22 needs to point its nose to the target in order to feed data to the BVR at least for some time specially when the locked on jet start its evasive maneuvering. Other jets in the theater can then start looking for F-22.

 

[zebra7]

@gambit

What about Missile approach warning system? What is the usual range of such system like Spectra?

Even if RWR will not work since with F-22 LPI mode, a missile launch will immediately be detected by the opposing air crafts thus compromising F-22 position. The F-22 needs to point its nose to the target in order to feed data to the BVR at least for some time specially when the locked on jet start its evasive maneuvering. Other jets in the theater can then start looking for F-22.

Sir, though don't have much knowledge like @gambit I would try to answer some.

1. Missile approach warning systems are the sensors to warn the pilot for the missile threat, they can be mounted to its wings tips, tail, or under belly. e.g SU 30MKI don't have MAWs till now and after Super Sukhoi update it will have four maw sensor one on the tail tip for 360 degree coverage, 2 on both wing tips, and one underbelly for SAM threat. They have less range of detection, say around 15-20km max but gives ample time for the pilot to take evasive manuevor or other counter measures.

2. SPECTRA is the total EW suites developed by french for Rafale fighter plane, that includes DRFM Aesa based jammer, MAWS, RWR etc, its not one device but the combination of various devices or the sensors.

3. To point the nose in the particular direction is only when BVRaam is on passive mode, not necessory when it is on Active mode or IR mode. F-22's AIM 120c7(modified) coordinate update could be feed from other fighter plane also, read my above posts for details and that will answer you question to some extend.

4. If you are thinking of detecting the raptor's location from its missile launch from which equipment/sensor ??
if its through MAWs than no way explained above. If with the IRST/Radar then the both should be inline to the F-22 position which would like to attack from side and from higher altitute with nose down (Best aproach).
Even if we consider that the radar/irst sensor is able to pick the BVR(which is without RAM coating) or the heat from the motor of the missile, that gives the coordinates of the missile not of the Raptor. Also explained above how F-22 could keep on marking the target without firing the BVR and then open the door to release the havoc.

hope you like it
@gambit Sorry for answering or if you don't like it

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

But have you seen Israeli tech, that allows them to hide tanks and vehicles from IR/Heat signature detection? Saw it on discovery, it totally hide vehicle on IR systems. That may be used for jet in future.

At that speed, you cannot get rid of wind resistance, no matter what tech. For every weapon there is a counter, and by the time IR signatures are masked in aircraft (i doubt ever), Ir detection will also proceed forward.

In case of jf17 IRST and And Data sharing b/w ground radars and awacs and other jets can get f22 like target locked even at greater ranges which is possible. We have tps 77 radars and other chinese recently inducted which can detect Stealth targets and simultaneously share the abc of their location rapidly to PAF fighters.

Further more I believe our F16 Block 52+ or Jf17 can be modified to carry EA 18 Style equipment to provide front line target designation of targets to its fighters.

I dont believe AESA has anything to do with Stealth detection. IT is itself a technology that causes low detection to itself. But detecting of Stealth targets can be done by simple pulse Doppler too if powerful enough. Remember Eurofighter when pitted against f22 were equipped with pulse doppler and detected f22 at some angles if not any. I believe Pakistan already possess such tech even in OBL raid time we had TPS 77 which is aesa but didnt detect those choppers according to news and stuff but I believe we did detect them.
We can also change the frequency of radar signals at which our survelliance ground radars detect to lower frequency or higher to detect stealth jets.

TPS77 is a high level radar. It is not able to detect anything that flies in Low Level regime...aka bunch of helicopters flying knapp of the earth. For that PAF has low lever radars, but those operate in a particular theatre when needed, as a gap filler and not all the time.

You cannot change the frequency to higher or lower in radar. Radars have a fixed frequency band, and it cannot be changed, however you can change radar types. I doubt Pakistan will ever go to VHF or HF radars, since the conops is on UHF radar.

 

[Basel]

At that speed, you cannot get rid of wind resistance, no matter what tech. For every weapon there is a counter, and by the time IR signatures are masked in aircraft (i doubt ever), Ir detection will also proceed forward.



TPS77 is a high level radar. It is not able to detect anything that flies in Low Level regime...aka bunch of helicopters flying knapp of the earth. For that PAF has low lever radars, but those operate in a particular theatre when needed, as a gap filler and not all the time.

You cannot change the frequency to higher or lower in radar. Radars have a fixed frequency band, and it cannot be changed, however you can change radar types. I doubt Pakistan will ever go to VHF or HF radars, since the conops is on UHF radar.

Its not about wind resistance its about new plating with new advance electronics which hide the vehicle in the background, its possible with jets too.

ELTICS Black Fox Active, Adaptive IR Stealth System / Electronic Thermal Infrared Countermeasure System: Multi-Spectral Thermal/IR (Infrared) Adaptive Camouflage/Cloaking System for Combat Vehicles, Helicopters, and Warships Coming soon to a Battlespace/Theator of Operations Near You! | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and greatest tactical firearms news (tactical gun news), tactical gear news and tactical shooting news.

.

Israel Debuts ‘Stealth Armor’ Making Vehicles ‘Disappear’

 

[alimobin memon]

At that speed, you cannot get rid of wind resistance, no matter what tech. For every weapon there is a counter, and by the time IR signatures are masked in aircraft (i doubt ever), Ir detection will also proceed forward.



TPS77 is a high level radar. It is not able to detect anything that flies in Low Level regime...aka bunch of helicopters flying knapp of the earth. For that PAF has low lever radars, but those operate in a particular theatre when needed, as a gap filler and not all the time.

You cannot change the frequency to higher or lower in radar. Radars have a fixed frequency band, and it cannot be changed, however you can change radar types. I doubt Pakistan will ever go to VHF or HF radars, since the conops is on UHF radar.

F117 nighthawk was downed by siberia I think by altering frequencies.

 

[silent hawk]

TPS77 is a high level radar. It is not able to detect anything that flies in Low Level regime...aka bunch of helicopters flying knapp of the earth. For that PAF has low lever radars, but those operate in a particular theatre when needed, as a gap filler and not all the time.

.

According to my information the situation has changed after Abbottabad Incident. Low level radars are now operating round the clock and covering most of Pakistan with some trans fontier visibility as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you very much sir, and I am a fan of yours specially your idea of the simple plane with load of bvr which couple of members are unable to digest and making fun of yours. But you are on the right track but the post needs little finishing and polishing a bit.
I agree to your point that F-22 won't be invisible for long but not in anyway in 5 years but needs 10-15 years to defeat the lion of the sky. Every counter measures have its own counter measures and its the continous process, and US is several decades ahead of the world specially in electronics and Radars.


Both China and Russia have the potential to do that and need each other but don't see anything bombastic right now. China is still long way to learn to develop decent engine and in electronics as well she falls way behind and all the development needs the help of the Russian scientists, since all the leap forward jump in the sensors, radar tech and various critical tech and its IPR she could get from the former Soviet Union aka CAR, specially UKraine have been taken with the huge amount of money pumped in have been taken and now the two problem i.e Engine and Radars/avionics are in deep inside the Russia which is now suspectible with the event of direct copy of SU 27 in the form of various J series like J16 etc. Russians are also the leaders in Radars but she have the problem related to the money needed for R&D and with the crisis with the ukraine and its economical condition dosen't see anything coming too substaintial.

Explained by @gambit rather too beutifully and in detailed. If you read my first post I have show not in very detailed how the targetting plane and the BVR launch plane are different and how its highly efficient closed data link gives true pictures to be distributed among themself using only one radar which will be the only one which will be visible in the Radar Screen. The all expect sensors like MAWs could be able to pick the launch and missile but not the launch plane.

First the bad news There is no plane in the world that could evade the 1000 BVR missile but good news is that if there is no platform plane survived in the sky then there will be no threat of any bvr missile left other than that bvr could be spoofed, dodged, jammed, fooled with the ariel decoys, ew countermeasures like DRFM based aesa jammers etc. As a matter of fact you cannot fire the so called 1000 missile if there is no target detected in the range and only one which is visible is out of range and which is in range is invissible. Its just like fighting with the sniper who is completely camouflauged and who have long range gun with 6X scope and that too silent and the spotter giving him the true picture of the battlefield with real time updates.

As a matter of fact who have the best air superiority platform and who have the air superiority in the air rules the sky and there is no limitation to fly anywhere and let any other birds to fly undisturbed whether tanker or anything. BTW tankers fly in the safer zones its the enemy who have to ground and hide its air accets including AWAACS below earth.


If some level have been set by US any one who one to reach that level should not forget that till he is able to reach that level the US would have created several more higher level. Work has been started for Gen 6 and world is strugling with Gen 5 and still decades behind for the deployment.


If you talking about the F22 modified BVR aka AIM 120c7 or c9 whatever you say it have top attack profile aka the missile rose to the higher altitute and attack from the top. Advantage of this profile is that the missile have greater range and it surpasses any detection and countermeasures like MAWs, EW Jammer suites, why because the direction and the range of these sensors and equipment works in the bottom, forward, and sides hemisphere. If there is no detection where will be the flares and chaffs.

Data Link of the F-22 are different and more faster, over interlink secured network, its more faster which distributes clear, wide, real time picture of the whole battlefield and the pilot can chose the time and position of the attack from the list of option created by the mission computer automatically. The mission computer is very powerful and makes all calculation and preassumptions thus relieved the pilot from the work load.

Hi,

Thank you for anther wonderful post---. My 1000 missile comments was---I read that the F22 has evaded a 1000 missiles overall---not at one time.

I think a lot has come out in this discussion----but I am a layman----so technically---maybe around 20---30%----. The real secrets are up there in the ether.

We have smart bombs----with a camera lens in the eye and we can see it till the last moment---. Why is there no mention of a similar technology in a missile---there is a lesser chance of it being fooled by jamming---a wide eyed lens backed by smart chips AI to search and track and to compliment the other tracking devices---basically a live feed at the missile head.

If they have not been able to---then someone will come up with ways to track a missile launch.

Technically---there is no system in the world that is perfect---. There will always be a flaw somewhere to be manipulated----that is the law of nature----. Once that flaw is manipulated----it will make a breach.

took me a while to open up this article and read through. I am reluctant visitor of aeronautics section due to little to no understanding of this world, be it the military tactics or the plane types and their roles.

I have said it enough time that I am sure apologetic explanation must be sounding like a broken record and annoying so please forgive me.

that said. let me offer my uninvited review anyway


@Horus, as usual nicely edited, presented and touched up

@Oscar, good over all article and presentation.

let me share my gripes now (but forgive me for late entry and in case I missed your explanations in the following pages)
reader is taken in depth through the Indian strategy, its excuse to attack its primary & secondary target selection.

but what is missed out is specifically detailing why JF-17 is meant for PAF? it would’ve been good if was discussed as a counter weapon to foil attacks on alleged sites in Muridke or preventive strikes on PAF bases by Indian airforce

it deserved almost same amount of depth in explaining why and how this single engine multirole fighter with modest payload but good variety of weapons and decent electronic package would counter Indian air, ground and naval forces.

. if the reader ignores the title and the early paragraphs which mention JF-17 then the article is a broad speech at macro level about Indo-Pak military strategy suitable as a speech in National defense college or a defense seminar.

I, as a reader felt teased with a little appetizer and kept waiting for \ full course in a multiple course meal but it never arrived. I was hopping for 1 or 2 short paragraphs where its diverse payload will get a short mention on how it will deploy its long and short range weapons against different threats while protecting Pakistani airspace in direct confrontation with IAF or as a supporting role to PN and PA, I won’t say I feel cheated but its like the favorite candy or ice cream was snatched from me the moment I started enjoying it.

Hi,

Thank you for a very meaningful post. When the statement is made that it s made for the Pakistan air force---the question arise " for what "---it is not a toy to play with---it is a weapon to fight with----. And as a weapon----what it is designed to fight with and how would it do that.

The JF 17 was built for battle----a battle against what kind of aircraft---what are the expected losses and what are the gains. How would it maintain and manage air superiority against an aircraft designed to take on the F 15.

I have been on this board almost 10 years now---and from day one---I have not changed my stance---that in a conflict---india will start with massive air strikes----with as many aircraft that it can spare to neutralize Pakistani air force----if not in the first 24 hours then the first 48 hours---.

First question is---hw can an aircraft that can only LOITER around for 1 to 1 1/4 hour in the air can compete with those that can loiter around for 4-5 hours---.

Most of us senior in age members know what happened to Egyptian migs in the 73 war---after 1/2 hour they were landing and the phantoms would pounce on them.

The issue is not about the quality of this aircraft---the issue is about the LIE that our LIGHTWEIGHT fighter will annihilate the enemy's HEAVY weight fighter.

That lie is something that I cannot accept---.

What it comes down to is---why would the enemy fight from a position of weakness---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

According to my information the situation has changed after Abbottabad Incident. Low level radars are now operating round the clock and covering most of Pakistan with some trans fontier visibility as well.

Yes, we have 5000 low level radars? Lol.

F117 nighthawk was downed by siberia I think by altering frequencies.

VHF radar track, correlation with X band radar to track and prosecute.

 

[zebra7]

We have smart bombs----with a camera lens in the eye and we can see it till the last moment---. Why is there no mention of a similar technology in a missile---there is a lesser chance of it being fooled by jamming---a wide eyed lens backed by smart chips AI to search and track and to compliment the other tracking devices---basically a live feed at the missile head.

Thanks for the compliment and great pleasure to impress @MastanKhan .
For that check the hardkill countermeasures using direct energy weapon aka laser to attack the sensors making the weapon threat blind.

F117 nighthawk was downed by siberia I think by altering frequencies.

F117 was detected by using higher wavelengh frequency > 1m square. There was some article with the interview of the technician who was responsible for that sometime back in details. He modified the circuitry to gain the desired frequency and then used radar for few seconds and keep the radar in sleep mode to avoid the anti-radiation attack and in one instance he detected F117 and passes the coordinate to the missile launch platform which fires the Buck SAM at that direction and coordinate and the SAM did the rest.

Regards

 

[alimobin memon]

Thanks for the compliment and great pleasure to impress @MastanKhan .
For that check the hardkill countermeasures using direct energy weapon aka laser to attack the sensors making the weapon threat blind.


F117 was detected by using higher wavelengh frequency > 1m square. There was some article with the interview of the technician who was responsible for that sometime back in details. He modified the circuitry to gain the desired frequency and then used radar for few seconds and keep the radar in sleep mode to avoid the anti-radiation attack and in one instance he detected F117 and passes the coordinate to the missile launch platform which fires the Buck SAM at that direction and coordinate and the SAM did the rest.

Regards

thats the thing im saying modifying circuitry

 

[amardeep mishra]

Whilst the many rumours that our ever so cynical neighbours in the east throw at us regarding the contribution of Pakistan in designing and manufacturing the JF-17; that debate is well documented by the PAF itself and available to the public.

Hi dear @Oscar
I read your analysis line by line and i found it very interesting. Although I will confess that i am myself not too aware of the doctrines of either IAF or PAF. And i think you have done a fabulous job of highlighting each doctrine and the circumstances under which both the forces would be forced to fight a war. I highlighted the line above ,because I am into aerospace research(flight dynamics and control) and to be quite honest I never ran into any research literature pertaining to pakistani contribution in Jf-17 program be it-
1)Aerodynamics
2)Structures
3)Propulsion or
4)Controls(Control law/fight actuators etc)
Since I am concerned with point number #4,it will be really helpful if you can delve into that
Thanks in advance

 

[SQ8]

Hi dear @Oscar
I read your analysis line by line and i found it very interesting. Although I will confess that i am myself not too aware of the doctrines of either IAF or PAF. And i think you have done a fabulous job of highlighting each doctrine and the circumstances under which both the forces would be forced to fight a war. I highlighted the line above ,because I am into aerospace research(flight dynamics and control) and to be quite honest I never ran into any research literature pertaining to pakistani contribution in Jf-17 program be it-
1)Aerodynamics
2)Structures
3)Propulsion or
4)Controls(Control law/fight actuators etc)
Since I am concerned with point number #4,it will be really helpful if you can delve into that
Thanks in advance

There are several video's made early on by PAC which are in the information pool and/or in the Jf-17 thread that show the JF-17 in constructional dn testing. Within these videos you will see more than a few PAF engineering working alongside the Chinese counterparts. So Mr Ma was heading a composite team of CAC and PAC engineers. The major programming of the aircraft is also in C++, so that allowed a lot of engineers to settle in fast as compared to those needing to go through the steep learning curve of ADA.

The PAF contributed in a variety of fields by essentially providing manpower to the team which Chengdu could not due to it being engaged in the J-10 program in parallel as well. Regarding the laws, the PAF's greatest contribution there were Pilots and engineers associated with the F-16 squadron who worked alongside the Chinese in the design phase of the laws; which you would be aware first involves looking into system architecture, then basic programming , moving onto fine tuning with the help of the pilot and wind tunnel figures. Because the JF is unstable in pitch only, the hybrid system needed only to focus on one channel as fly by wire while the rest are computer assisted hydraulic.

 

[Shinigami]

akistan has one of the highest aircraft to pilot ratio’s (1:2.5). By contrast the IAF has (1:0.8) which may also be a contributing factor in preventing conflict

not good

 

[SQ8]

not good

And is not fixing quickly either. It is a double edged sword as the IAF can not(and should not) drop standards but at the same time its salary package is not as competitive as the many airlines that have popped up. A lot of the IAF was "Lost" to Indian airlines. Many opportunists dumped the IAF to the dismay of their seniors and went for greener waters.

So while there have been new intakes, these are matching the numbers of previous years whereas the IAF needs to exceed those numbers. So both being a larger force and a larger economy is hurting the IAF in certain areas.