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groundzero

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Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion

China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.
This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by Kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.
 
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So things are happening in the predicted lines.

Bull,
I know what you are saying, but it seemds ridiculous for 2 countries to embark on a big programme like JF17 and not have solid assurances from the Russian Government regarding the Engine. It may be that the engine needs tweeking as there have been issues regarding smoke and Power, but this would be a critical error not to have an engine at all. I am sure that PAF has had adequate time to find an alternate engine if there had been problems from the Russians. I think the situation will resolve itself and we will Insha Allah see Thunder in PAF colours soon.
Regards
Araz
 
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Bull,
I know what you are saying, but it seemds ridiculous for 2 countries to embark on a big programme like JF17 and not have solid assurances from the Russian Government regarding the Engine. It may be that the engine needs tweeking as there have been issues regarding smoke and Power, but this would be a critical error not to have an engine at all. I am sure that PAF has had adequate time to find an alternate engine if there had been problems from the Russians. I think the situation will resolve itself and we will Insha Allah see Thunder in PAF colours soon.
Regards
Araz

The chineese were expecting to have the WS-13 ready by then.Which didnt happen.
 
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old article.thats why cleverly disguised the source so date isn't visible.but this is almost 8 or 9 months old.
but bull you can continue to dream.:lol:
 
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The chineese were expecting to have the WS-13 ready by then.Which didnt happen.

JF-17 is with the RD-93 engine in Pakistan.

Russia has no problems with the RD-93 engine to Pakistan. :oops:

Indian attempt to block RD-93 failed.

Russia is faithful to who can be seen CLEARLY!!

Just wanted to pitch in a few facts, which some people were having problem accepting it.

Cheers on the rocks!! :bunny:
 
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I think the plan is Russia would pretend to frown a little from time to time at China to appease India. Indians will see that the Russians did object and it's only China that circumvented the EULA.

You think the Russians would cut off their military ties with China over this issue? :D They are very probably in on everything.
 
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China has no other country other than russia willing to provide advanced military tech.
And russians know it.

So Russians can take certain liberties with china which they cant take with india or they seriously risk loosing indian defence orders ...

Think it over... will any country sell to the chinese ..hovercrafts ,carrier aircraft , bombers , ASW systems ,attack helis and other advanced stuff other than russia....??

The answer is clearly a no

and china desperately needs this stuff when Taiwan declares independence..

lastly even if china cringes at the fact that russians wont allow reexport of Rd-33 engines...they cant do nothing abt it... frankly they have no other alternative.
 
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So you are actually thinking Russia would ditch a big consumer like China (bigger than India, btw) over the RD-93 engines? :D.

At best Russia would say "Ok, but don't do it again" :D

Seriously you guys have already been screwed over by the Russians and you should leave them and buy the American planes already. Truth be told, Indians have come to terms with it as well. They've realized that in the future Russians would sell to both. Just like Russia won't leave the Chinese of the RD-93 issue... Indians won't leave the Russians over the RD-93 issue. Maybe, just Mayyyyyyyybe they might not go for the 126 MRCAs, but Indians have a whole lot of other things they want to buy from the Russians.

And judging from the warm reception the Russian officials got in Jan, they are probably still buying those 126 MRCAs from Russia, even after getting screwed. India is just... India. Not a Super Power, not an arm twister, not a world changer like it oh so often amuses itself to be. All these scenarios that Indians are playing out are just hype from a little tidbit thrown their way and the Indians hype it out of proportion.
 
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So you are actually thinking Russia would ditch a big consumer like China (bigger than India, btw) over the RD-93 engines? :D.

At best Russia would say "Ok, but don't do it again" :D

Seriously you guys have already been screwed over by the Russians and you should leave them and buy the American planes already. Truth be told, Indians have come to terms with it as well. They've realized that in the future Russians would sell to both. Just like Russia won't leave the Chinese of the RD-93 issue... Indians won't leave the Russians over the RD-93 issue. Maybe, just Mayyyyyyyybe they might not go for the 126 MRCAs, but Indians have a whole lot of other things they want to buy from the Russians.

And judging from the warm reception the Russian officials got in Jan, they are probably still buying those 126 MRCAs from Russia, even after getting screwed. India is just... India. Not a Super Power, not an arm twister, not a world changer like it oh so often amuses itself to be. All these scenarios that Indians are playing out are just hype from a little tidbit thrown their way and the Indians hype it out of proportion.

Well if the russians don't take India's concerns,then it is Russia which loses. India will simply switch sources as time goes on.
Now if this is seen as a major breakthrough for Pakistan,sadly that may not be the case.

Unfortunately India as one of the world largest importer of western arms would be much more powerful than one of the world's largest importer of Russian arms.

In such a case..China would be facing a far too formidable foe on the western border..just because it wanted to increase it's imports by using Russia system.

It is China and Pakistan that have source and budget constraint respectively. India may have budget constrains but not the source!
 
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There are countries now who are stepping up, who can purchase more than India. Since India is starting to go towards Western and Isreali systems. Russia cannot remain too faithful.
 
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There are countries now who are stepping up, who can purchase more than India. Since India is starting to go towards Western and Isreali systems. Russia cannot remain too faithful.

For Russian all it matters is the quantity of business. They dont give damn about if India buys less or more from Israel. If India reduces that "quantity of business" ,bcoz Russia cannot take into consideration India's concern,that they would responsible for the loss of the business.

The question of Russia being faithful or not does not arise until they get their due of business.

Russian systems give best bang for buck.Hence for quantity it is Russians,while for quantity it is Israel. simple as that. Israel deals with India for two reasons.First they are their largest customer and second joint development would mean cheaper production in India.

India isn't complaining...
 
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