JF-17, not F-16, used in air combat: report

[araz]

A lot of conflicting reports.. .I'm more inclined to stick with the PAF versions.. As it is more reliable when compared to IAF version (which has many contradictions)!

Agreed. PAF and DG ISPR have riden away with flying colours in this encounter. They have been open and reasonably honest in description of IAF attacks backing it up with proof while for IAF/indian media it has been mostly rhetoric without any tangible proof. The badgam fighter loss is another unexplained loss with 2 lives lost all at the same time which makes me think it is the other plane which PAF shot which eventually crashed in Badgam.
The heli mystery if it can be called that remains one.PAF HAS DENIED it targeted a helicopter so was it fratrucide or a misfire by PAF remains to be proven.
A

You are right, they have no other interceptor, neither will they bring Su-30 near 100 k.m. to the border.
Only reliable a/c they have is mirage-2000, but would India be confident to undertake new adventure?... no.
I don't see any violation of PAK border in future, not any time soon.

I think they may still try a sneek attack to take on a "soft" target but wont engage PAF. Even if they do they will plan this more appropriately which will take time. If the elections happen on time will this leave enough time for Modi to take credit for this is not known. The political mileage from it might therefore dictate that the risk is far more than the benefit. However other factors being involved and there being other forces behind this attack might make them plan and go for another one. The world is watching this cat and mouse game and unfortunately the IAF is being played. Can they resist the pressure?
A

 

[JF-17ThunderBlock3]

I have only one question - who is his father?

I think this Guy is on Dope. Look at his face. He Looks being drugged

Ummm.... OK... That raises more questions than answers
May I ask why would Mongolia, a landlocked country, have a Navy?

It creates a fallacy inception mode.

 

[aliyusuf]

Why is their MiG-29, which have been upgraded recently, not being mentioned during all this? Curious that IAF used the MiG-21 Bison but not the MiG-29 UPG?

 

[araz]

What else will they use that is the only interceptors they have. I doubt India will bring mig-25 out if junk yards and if so 25s have even bigger RCS and they pop up like a building on radar.



What else will they use that is the only interceptors they have. I doubt India will bring mig-25 out if junk yards and if so 25s have even bigger RCS and they pop up like a building on radar.

I think they lost out because they did not see what was in store for them. We use J7pgs as interceptors and they use Bisons. This is for the reason that they have small frontal RCS and are quick though shortlegged. I see PAF becoming more and more confident with the Thunder which possibly spells the end of the ??PGs era. The PGs will be designated to second tier in this case.
The second thought is this was a very planned/ controlled incursion into one sector. Would PAF remain in control if the incursion were to occur in 4 or 6 areas simultaneously. I suspect at some stage in the next 3-5 years will PAF expose the PGs to fight and what would be the outcome remains to be seen. Will the outcome still be the same if IAF Were to intrude in attack and scamper beck while a second tier ACs wait to launch an attack on the defenders.
There are many ramifications that will go through the minds of both PAF and IAF planners. The final outcomes of these deliberations, the risks involved and taken by the other side will dictate what they do. PAF certainly does not have any aggressive designs on India so it will be on the defensive. Will the IAF dare knowing fully well you will lose 3:1 fighters in any aggressive maneouvers. What do the Indian politicians gain from a win and what will they do if they lose? Crying about having the Rafale was such a sob story. It was totally pathetic. Are they prepared to take those risks knowing fully well that the last one backfired badly. I would have loved to have had their Rafales chase us into the trap. Then what would they have said?
A

 

[BATMAN]

I think they may still try a sneek attack to take on a "soft" target but wont engage PAF. Even if they do they will plan this more appropriately which will take time. If the elections happen on time will this leave enough time for Modi to take credit for this is not known. The political mileage from it might therefore dictate that the risk is far more than the benefit. However other factors being involved and there being other factors behind this attack might make them plan and go for another one. The world is watching this cat and mouse game and unfortunately the IAF is being played. Can they resist the pressure?
A

Would they not think of 'ugly' reaction (ISPR), while bombing any soft target again, unless you mean terrorist attack, which is always a possibility.

After loosing Su-30 Indian army fell back to strategic missile game, which tells they accepted defeat in conventional warfare. I don't expect a defeated army to recover within a time of few months.

Yes, it's election time in India and hate against Pakistan is a top seller, but now modi has also publicly accepted defeat by stating Indian need Rafale in order to have different results of war with Pakistan.

Indian media has stopped selling war. They are rather questioning their own army of evidences against their strike claims.

I stated some facts and my estimate is based on these facts.

 

[JF-17ThunderBlock3]

This is just an observation and I hope you will take the post in the spirit in which it has been written.
All forces personnel irrespective of their origin need to be respected. They are willing to shed blood in the name of their country and keep awake while most of us sleep easy. So whereas I am all for saying that PAF gave IAF a hiding par excellance we need to respect soldiers on both sides. He tried his best and luck or planning did not go his way. While under arrest he conducted himself with respect and dignity. He was dealt with by gentlemen who respected him and treated him well. He was returned to his loved ones with due grace and dignity. Long live this spirit of chivalry.
Of the 70 odd prisoners that came into the hand of the Muslims was the uncle of the Prophet SAW. The Prophet SAW did not like the fact that his uncle was in pain due to the tight shackles. So the shackles of ALL the prisoners were loosened. When it came to negotiating his release the Prophet asked his uncle how he is going to organize his ransom. The uncle said" I have nothing" . The Prophet SAW said "what about the money you and your wife under in such and such place in the darkness of the night". Abbas RA said "I bear witness that you are the Rasool of Allah as no one other than me and my wife know about this matter". He therefore paid the ransom and was released. The point here is we give clemency but stick to the rules.
A

We do understand so as our nation apart from some aggressive blows ( non lethal ones )
Our common man in country do understand above than military conflict and urges to have peace in the region.
Pakistani nation is not as absurdly cocky when it comes to their defense forces like Indians who worship their war machines like none other Tejas, Su-30Mki, RAFALE Deal.

People took the image below as trophy winner.
But the real meaning about friendship is expressed as urge to hope towards peace.

Aisi Chai Jo Dushman ko Bhi Dost Banayey
A Tea which turn a foe into friend.

 

[BATMAN]

Many are bluff into the believe of Bars radar of Su-30MKI. Another thing is R-77 BVRAAM despite bragging to have very long shooting range is overstated and it's resistant jamming is not good. Wonder why China PL-12 missile is made to look more like AIM-120 than R-77. More or less tells u China think what is better.

I don't think IAF was given an opportunity to test R-77 or R73 whatever they had hanging with their migs and Su-30.
Yes, it's known statistics that R-xx have half the hit rate as compare to AIM, that's why Indian doctrine is of fielding numbers vs. Pakistan, which apparently is razed by PAF.

 

[araz]

Would they not think of 'ugly' reaction (ISPR), while bombing any soft target again, unless you mean terrorist attack, which is always a possibility.

After loosing Su-30 Indian army fell back to strategic missile game, which tells they accepted defeat in conventional warfare. I don't expect a defeated army to recover within a time of few months.

Yes, it's election time in India and hate against Pakistan is a top seller, but now modi has also publicly accepted defeat by stating Indian need Rafale in order to have different results of war with Pakistan.

Indian media has stopped selling war. They are rather questioning their own army of evidences against their strike claims.

I stated some facts and my estimate is based on these facts.

Thank you. I concur. However we do need to be prepared for any stupidity including a hybrid attack.
A

 

[Cuirassier]

Seemed more like a No. 5 Falcon Reborn from this angle, but, I could be mistaken.

View attachment 547026

Older picture from 2018, when this Squadron wasn't raised, AFAIK.

 

[denel]

I think they lost out because they did not see what was in store for them. We use J7pgs as interceptors and they use Bisons. This is for the reason that they have small frontal RCS and are quick though shortlegged. I see PAF becoming more and more confident with the Thunder which possibly spells the end of the ??PGs era. The PGs will be designated to second tier in this case.
The second thought is this was a very planned/ controlled incursion into one sector. Would PAF remain in control if the incursion were to occur in 4 or 6 areas simultaneously. I suspect at some stage in the next 3-5 years will PAF expose the PGs to fight and what would be the outcome remains to be seen. Will the outcome still be the same if IAF Were to intrude in attack and scamper beck while a second tier ACs wait to launch an attack on the defenders.
There are many ramifications that will go through the minds of both PAF and IAF planners. The final outcomes of these deliberations, the risks involved and taken by the other side will dictate what they do. PAF certainly does not have any aggressive designs on India so it will be on the defensive. Will the IAF dare knowing fully well you will lose 3:1 fighters in any aggressive maneouvers. What do the Indian politicians gain from a win and what will they do if they lose? Crying about having the Rafale was such a sob story. It was totally pathetic. Are they prepared to take those risks knowing fully well that the last one backfired badly. I would have loved to have had their Rafales chase us into the trap. Then what would they have said?
A

if we read TiM ... he is now using this as a rallying cry to get rafales; makes one wonder much more spin they intend or even if the downing was a deliberate ploy to set up the stage to get US to turn on screws, election upstage, and rafale deal.
but it was a bungled fiasco overall

 

[BHarwana]

I think they lost out because they did not see what was in store for them. We use J7pgs as interceptors and they use Bisons. This is for the reason that they have small frontal RCS and are quick though shortlegged. I see PAF becoming more and more confident with the Thunder which possibly spells the end of the ??PGs era. The PGs will be designated to second tier in this case.
The second thought is this was a very planned/ controlled incursion into one sector. Would PAF remain in control if the incursion were to occur in 4 or 6 areas simultaneously. I suspect at some stage in the next 3-5 years will PAF expose the PGs to fight and what would be the outcome remains to be seen. Will the outcome still be the same if IAF Were to intrude in attack and scamper beck while a second tier ACs wait to launch an attack on the defenders.
There are many ramifications that will go through the minds of both PAF and IAF planners. The final outcomes of these deliberations, the risks involved and taken by the other side will dictate what they do. PAF certainly does not have any aggressive designs on India so it will be on the defensive. Will the IAF dare knowing fully well you will lose 3:1 fighters in any aggressive maneouvers. What do the Indian politicians gain from a win and what will they do if they lose? Crying about having the Rafale was such a sob story. It was totally pathetic. Are they prepared to take those risks knowing fully well that the last one backfired badly. I would have loved to have had their Rafales chase us into the trap. Then what would they have said?
A

Another reason that air forces use Mig 21 or F7pg is that it has the shortest time for wheels up.

Do you know anything about what CAP were in other sectors over okara and Rajasthan from Indian side. If you come accross this info please post it thanks.

 

[alphibeti]

Indians in their over confidence did not fly with jamming pods...

Doesn't look logical. PAF takes out one SU-30 and another Mig-21 and Indian pilots were still overconfident? They were in fact frantically trying to save their rear from getting busted by PAF. Either their jamming pods didn't work or they couldn't muster courage to face off PAF. There is nothing named as over-confidence in IAF.

 

[araz]

Another reason that air forces use Mig 21 or F7pg is that it has the shortest time for wheels up.

Do you know anything about what CAP were in other sectors over okara and Rajasthan from Indian side. If you come accross this info please post it thanks.

I doubt I would ever be in possession of such info. I am not sure anyone will post such info on open fora in any case.

 

[BHarwana]

I doubt I would ever be in possession of such info. I am not sure anyone will post such info on open fora in any case.

Yes you are correct. This is the actual thing we need to discuss and understand. Their capability in every sector should be documented and recorded and their strategy should be studied.
PAF radars should have picked up the Indian interceptors protocol.
Modi said India lacked Rafale this is mostly been taken as political statement but if we keep the politics aside is there any weight in this statement in your opinion?

 

[siegecrossbow]

https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2536863&extra=page=1

Hand-drawn artwork by a Chinese military fan.