JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[salarsikander]

yeah will first buy some f-22 and we will make for it.....hey why Argentina rejected it..and buys second hand lavi instead

Hi,
Why should we buy it first, I'm sure there was no need for you to go for imported crafts as vedic galactic spaceship ars far more advanced than anything that humankind has seen.

Hey, why did mother of all Deals died ? After 8 years

 

[araz]

Mastan's love- hate relationship with Thunder has been consistent.

The question really is, what exactly, the difference between a medium fighter like J-10b and JF-17?What sets JF-17 and J-10 apart?

Is it the range? Is it the avionics? Is it the weaponry? Is it the Radar? Is it the growth prospects? Is it low radar signature?

Compact range is more in JF-17, hence its not the point. Avionics could be identical, Weaponry is same, JF-17 can have the same radar of J-10 ...

So the what is that which makes J-10B stand apart from JF-17?

Is it stealth? If so JF-17 being smaller will have a definite edge.and extensive usage of composites will bring down the visibility on radars.

JF-17 is and will more of a Pakistani fighter than Chinese and the growth prospects of these fighter will be on parallel with the future of PAF .

If Mastan's wishlist is based on what India is buying or planning to buy, then that's because India's home grown program or an alternative to find jets apart from heavy to maintain Su-30s have been stuck deep in indecisive dramas and policy paralysis along with an absurd bargaining .

Ofcourse the next BIG purchase should be J-31s when its ready. Until then the focus should be solely on inducting and training the PAF into JF-17 specific force along with adding the fighter with all the goodies that China can offer and stop worrying about what other buy.

The only advantage between a Medium fighter must be a twin jet, but that's not an issue since J-10B is also a single engine fighter..

So be happy with the fighter you have.

It has immense growth potential , is cheaper and is apna (own).

This is such a good and balanced post from a person who knows what he is talking about. Talking specifically about the subject. Thank you very much for your contribution.
I think what Mastan khan and a lot of us are in agreement about is that at least for naval role and possibly also for its longer loitering time. PAF needs a twin engined aircraft. On this forum this has been a long on going debate. However unlike before we now have options like the Chinese platforms. Istill think that the SU35 IS A BRIDGE TOO FAR FOR PAF.
The debate in essence points to some commonality of engines which might make this acquisition a viable and relatively cheap one for PAF. On account of possible engine and armament commonality I also thought that J31 should be our next purchase. Unfortunately or not the Rafale deal has gone sour for IAF anf from PAFs perspective the urgency has gone out of the purchase of newer platform.
Araz

 

[Usama78]

I am not much into specs and stuff of aircrafts, but what I understand is we needed something of our own, BADLY. Here we have it, JFT.
I guess it matches some of the 4.5 gen air crafts, lacking only for being a single engine jet. Also, I heard, its badly upgradeable so that should do :
Anyways, it was supposed to fill spots of older air crafts that need to be taken out. It'll do that in cheap.
And when we can afford, maybe in 5-7 years or even 10, we should go for a beast then and of that time... Till then upgrade JFT and boom boom with F 16.

 

[salarsikander]

it is bcoz not better than your jf-17 na .................yeah vedic galactic are present inIAF inventory ..some may be buzzing near by your house........but thats a last resort..only when armada happens hahaha..i answered your....now answer previous one......

Hi,

I am not very fond, but though at times, I am amused by, especially how some ( Indian) members demonstrate their mental capacity by writing such posts

 

[Super Falcon]

Better invest in SU 35 AIR SUPERIORITY which paf lacks

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I was 4 years old----my dad was posted at the railway hospital Mughalpura / Lahore----the residence was right next to the hospital---just a wall dividing the boundary.

So---there was a hive of wasp--the gold and brown type in the corner of the verandah.

One of the house servant's son says to me-----Chotay saab einoon wata maro ( little sir---hit the hive with a rock ). So---I let one fly---oh man---it struck right in the middle of the hive and the wasps came flying out mad right at me and hit me in the face with full fury----and I got bit and I got bit---and I was screaming---and my mother comes running---and the house servants come running and my mouth and face is getting swollen---they pick me up and took me next door---my dad was looking at the patients---he saw me---says what now----any way----got a bunch of shots----was okay after a few days.

Those were fun times.

 

[OTTOMAN]

There was no anti ship missile, when JF-17 was completing first squadron.
JF-17 is not prepared considering the intensity of enemy threat, it is designed considering PAF doctrine... smart airforce?
JF-17 can knock out, most of Indian fleet e.g. mirages and migs. in all war scenarios.
While all the bombing missions of over glorified SU-27 of IAF, will be countered by SAMs.
India SU were humiliated in American Redflags and due to its sluggish maneuverability are considered as trucks in air.
Only advantage IAF have over PAF is numbers... and no one can change the fact that the probability of survival increase if the numbers are increased, here the trouble is IAF pilots, for which I'm willing to bet will refuse to fly in any Indo-Pak war scenario.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I think JH-7 B can be great option but 4th Jet in PAF if needed for now along with F-16 and JF-17 we need either SU-35 or J-11 D. JH-7 B in large numbers can be good for PAF in fact can be our main jet for nuclear strike and bombing the hell out of enemy.

"Need" as in PAF needs it or do YOU 'want" to see such and such jets in PAF .. PAF is actually fine under the doctrine that it has ascribed to -- what MK and others like him advocate is a drastic change in the doctrine itself --- where you evolve from a strictly defensive airforce to an airforce that is inclined towards projecting power --- and I believe he is right in his belief because having others believe that we have other toys that can seriously hurt India, can close the gates to a small limited war as well --- with the probability of a full blown out war already very little considering the nuclear deterrent ...

But one needs to consider, how much are we willing to spend --- because a drastic change like that would require more or less 5 billion at the very least no matter what ever route we end up taking with upgrades and new acquisitions ...

 

[MastanKhan]

@mastan khan i dont know what has got into u since past few weeks, i see u making this forum Bharat Rakshak...where they were comparing their teja to f22 and u did that too with JFT. From a respected member yr just proving yrself to be a ordinary member.

But as for topic This aircraft may not be the best nor it was intended to be.. But its our lifeline. A country which has gone through series of embargoes such independence is vital for national security. Plus more importantly it helps Pakistan's domestic knowledge base and manufacturing capability. Now we even export them too.

U must have a far sight to understand Pakistan's projects.

Hi,

I did not make the comparison---someone did it on yahoo . com ---I just posted the information with my comments----.

So---just because you do not like the article you lose the respect----that is being very shallow----. How can the efforts of 9 years and 7 months be washed away just like that---maybe---could it be you who does not have the ability---capacity---and the understanding to understand what I am saying.

What I am saying is that over these years---it is me amongst many who puts forward a few things that people may agree on, or disagree---. Pappy--it s very difficult to keep an eternal hard on all the time.

Embargos are a SOB STORY----. Benazir paid the money upfront for the coming embargo----so that she could keep 150 million bribe from the deal of the embargoed F 16's---. Other aircraft were available during that time.

JF 17 is not a life line---it a complimentary aircraft to heavy aircraft---that is when it would be at its best----by itself---it is a maybe---.

In the complimentary mode---it is indeed a lifeline---. It needs something to create a beach head---to fracture the defense for it to slip thru---that is where its rapier like capability will shine thru---.

 

[Eagle Claw]

This Beauty can also be considered for a Strike Aircarft considering PAF . Cost is relatively low. Offers Great Capability + Payload + Hardpoints + PESA Radar + HMDs + EW ! Anything you want !
Good Choice for PAF/PN both.
#SU-34

 

[Viper0011.]

So it is like a Kabaddi match---we see an opponent and then we send someone to fight.

They have 240 SU 30's---we have 70 F16's---so what we gonna do.

MK , trust me. Its not that bad. I know the PAF has 70 -16's, but there are 50 JFT's being wired to carry BVR's as we speak and these should all be upgraded. Plus remember, Pakistan is a defensive country.....you aren't flying 100 miles into India. They are. So you add SAMS to it.

Plus AIM9X can hit out to 22 Miles, that's roughly over 30 KM's so all of a sudden, your Mirages, F-7's and all can fire missiles, whether or not they can win. So why do you think in 2008, the IAF's chief said that the PAF had stationed 75% of the air-force on FOB's by the border. You can lock onto anything inbound right inside your own border, whether you win a dog fight or. Not. Plus India has smart people too, they know a real war would mean a lot of rel issues for each side. So there shouldn't be a war anytime soon as it would be devastating for each side's growing economy.

There are things on the list for procurement, I know years were wasted but it is what it is. Can't bring back the past. But the future looks very bright!!

 

[Pindi Boy]

can the J-31 stand up to HAL FGFA?

PAK FA seems to be way ahead of the Chinese so HAL FGFA is based on it

Can you enligyten us how you reached that conclusion?
Russians have cut order for pak fa to 24. Indians rumoured to 35...it seems to b in trouble....

Chinese are building atleast 3 new stealth fighters...with j 20 might b entering service soon..

What facts are behind your querry??

 

[untitled]

@MastanKhan

You know Pakistan had evaluated the Tornado but rejected it because it had limited air to air potential even with the ADV version. Maybe that can be a topic of your next thread .
On a side note the Americans tried to sell the F-111 to the Israelis. They too had rejected it for the same reasons. In their defence they later acquired the F-15I.

In my opinion Pakistan can't afford a heavy weight aircraft which can't hold its own against an enemy fighter.

 

[Foo_Fighter]

Yes I would agree with what you have said. The title and probably the report is to strengthen the believe that PAF will get heroiced by IAF in any battle which is far from the truth so more and more funds can be diverted into PAF which they greatly need.

Yes not only PAF but any AF in the world would desire to have different platforms of Aircrafts to ensure the superiority. However due to shoe lace budget it has been only a dozen or few F16's and a few more JF17 for PAF in past decade.

To the point, I believe JF17 is one of the best (if not the best) money for value Aircraft in recent years and very good in current Pakistani current financial situation. Also, CAC is producing JF17 in Pakistan, hence they can manage quality control and decide their own rate of production.

IMO JF17 has been a blessing in disguise for Pakistan.

I would disagree ... with the title and the title alone i.e "JFT is the wrong aircraft for Pakistan" -- because that isn't simply true -- cost effectiveness + less strings to deal with + a good all around fighter for it's weight class make JF-17 the ideal fighter for PAF --

In my opinion the problem doesn't lie with the platform i.e JFT -- but with the sheer number of opportunities PAF has missed -- That includes Mirage 2000, additional F-16's and the J-10.. Now one can argue different conditions prevalent at the time could have caused such and such decision to be made -- but then again we did genuinely miss out on the Mirages, even if a case can be build for the J-10's ..

The problem we face now is that -- we cant go out and open up a project worth 8-9 Billion dollars getting two new platforms in numbers that many of us here advocate ... and lets face it the procurement over the next 5 years will determine our shape vis a vis IAF -- thankfully the IAF is alot worse when it comes to handling procurement projects so we have a little room to breath .. Today, we face over 350 odd 4th generation aircrafts from the IAF side with 125 odd 4th generation fighters on our side a ratio of roughly 2.8 : 1 -- which is okay-ish for PAF -- and when you consider in the maintenance and force multipliers in a defensive doctrine -- we can conclude that PAF does have enough capability to not only defend PAF skies -- but to give the IAF a bloody nose in the process ...

But it's not the same thing as -- " You come anywhere near my airspace -- and I will seriously F*CK you UP!" --

I think this is the right time to strike the decisive blow and cut down the numerical and technological disparity that IAF has traditionally enjoyed against the PAF ... Our economy is recovering and while we cannot go out and get execute a MMRCA type of project -- what we can do is convince the US to let more nations who plan on retiring their F-16's -- sell those pieces at low prices ... while making a similar MLU deal with the US which I think back then was around 1+ billion dollars while acquiring 3 squadrons of used F-16's (roughly 40/45 odd jets) -- we would be having a fleet of 120 F-16's @ blk 50 level .. I wouldn't wanna go with the complexity of adding an air superiority fighter like the J-10 because even 2 odd squadrons of J-10 B would be VERY costly -- and then we'd need time and training to finally put them in to use -- with the F-16's -- its more like plug & play kind of thing .. With ISIS coming in to Afghanistan it seems more likely the US would still want to keep check on such an organization and stay in Afghanistan as the ANA has repeatedly shown its lack of ability to cope with the Taliban threat much less ISIS -- and the peace talks as it seems have not ended in a way that many wanted them to ...

Secondly, with the MMRCA practically going down the drain -- and rumors of the french willing to renegotiate the deal for JFT, its time that Pakistan gives the Indians a taste of their own medicine and negotiates a new deal with the french for the upgrades of the JF-17 -- we already have Selex willing to give us an AESA and with weapons like MICA and EW suites based on SPECTRA, the kind PAF was negotiating for in the previous deal -- a "western JFT" will not only be a formidable foe for anything it goes up against -- but also will increase the prospects of exports as customers who prefer a western version of the JFT could peruse that --- As it stands now with the new weaponry coming out of China the likes of new versions of SD-10, 5th generation WVR missiles -- A darter from S.Africa/Brazil --- the thunder is only going to get much more venomous ..

Lastly, the navy should chip in for the acquisition of a platform like JH-7B as it will also serve the navy -- with the CPEC and such Chinese interests -- It shouldn't be that hard to purchase something like 3 squadrons cost effectively ..

If we play our cards well, we do have the potential to cause a considerable shift in the current balance of air power, where we can use our air power as a deterrent similar to how we use our missiles and nukes as powerful deterrents ...

 

[tarrar]

I will not call JF17 a wrong aircraft for PAF, but I would rather say JF17 is not a solution for everything. PAF should go for SU35, i.e. if they are truly offered by the Russians to Pakistan then there should be no further delay.

J20 & J31 are still not ready & they will take a lot of time & will under go a lot of trials before they get inducted in PLAAF, so we are looking a years.

J10 is a good available option for PAF but I don't know why PAF is not going for J10's.