JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[MastanKhan]

Dear Sir we have F-16 block 52+ as a front line fighter no need to send JF-17 against Sukhoi.

Hi,

So it is like a Kabaddi match---we see an opponent and then we send someone to fight.

They have 240 SU 30's---we have 70 F16's---so what we gonna do.

 

[MMG]

There is always strategy of overwhelming opponent's air force by multiple fighters against one. 2-3 JF-17 could beat SU-30MKI. plus JF-17 are cheap and that's the biggest positive factor

 

[MastanKhan]

MK - I agree with you. If you go back to my posts, I've bee wanting to see Heavies just as much as you've been talking about them. But that wasn't the point. The post I wrote, was about your post saying "the JFT is the wrong aircraft". in Kargill, the Mig 29's and the Mirages had locked onto patrolling -16's on the Pakistani side many times. ONLY because they didn't have the BVRs.

Today, both Mig29, or Mirage 2000's, would try to put a lock onto a JFT flying on the other side of the border, and will hear the same bone chilling beep in their cockpit at the same time. That beep, breaks a a sweat at 30,000 feet up in the air.....when its just you and behind you is your wing-man!!!

Similarly, the Indian Navy and members on here, would constantly bit*ch about "blockade" so much. A few pictures of the JFT flying with the supersonic anti-ship missile has stopped all that. They know they'll be hit from 160 miles away, let alone coming close to Karachi.

Similarly, why they haven't attacked even after "trying" a few times. For a soup-o-powa to generate that "Fear Factor" that the US military has (through established and proven combat and for the right reason), India won't have that in any war it got into with Pakistan. Pakistan might lose all 200 JFT's, but India will lose their 80 SU30's or 50 SU-30's and 50 Mig or Mirage 2000's...and some ships. That damage and its advertisement and the moral breakdown is such a cost that no power projection country wants to be showing to its own people, let alone to the world. All that, was made possible because of the JFT.

Now, on to the future, absolutely Pakistan needs 450+ advanced aircrafts. But the good thing is, this wait......turned into a blessing in disguise. Having the option of buy Russian SU-35 with Archers and all, or J-11D wouldn't be there three years ago.

You were pretty much stuck with no money in Pakistan's bank account and may be used -16's through FMS? or FC-20 from China through soft loans??? Today, you have about $ 19 billion in your account, if a national security emergency was to take place, you could pay the Chinese cash and get some J-11 from their flying formations, to help you with India right away. So I think the delay was the delay, no losses happened and no wars, I hope it stays like this. But this wait has turned out to be better for Pakistan IMO.

Today, Pakistan, due to its potential economic status and via projecting growth already taking place, can talk to many big countries on the same individual level. That confidence or the ability wasn't there when three years ago, the country was about to go bankrupt and barely had money to pay salaries to employees for a couple of months!!

So let's look at a brighter future, this wait's part of the history. Good things are coming and in due time. If India started a war when Pakistan only had 36 Block-15 F-16's without BVR and 40 JFT Block I's without BVR's.....right now you have over 100+ BVR fighters and in the next 12-24 months, you'll have about 250-300, so the chances of war are minimal. Let's hope people of this region don't see another way and both the countries get into a healthy economic and trade competition instead. All poor citizens from both sides will benefit from it.



I agree with you. Increase F-16's even more. I'd replace J-10B with J11D, or SU-35. THAT is what you want to be frank with you, whether 80 or 100, don't matter a whole lot!!

Hi,

I am a firm believer that the purpose of a major weapons system is not to win you the war ( even though that is the purpose ) but the purpose is to bring your opponent to the peace table. Because then it becomes futile to be in a stalemate and it is not worth it to continue the fight.

That is where Pakistan was between 2003 and 2005. The sanctions were off---funds were available---aircraft were available---but the paf had no urgency. It was an easy choice between the F 16 and the F 18's. They should have picked either aircraft, signed the dotted line and released the funds in a timely manner.

But no---there was drama----a year on the grippen 2 years on the rafale---a total wastage of time---pissed off the French---pissed off the swedes. After wasting all that time---they decide in 2005 or 2006 to order F 16's. The earthquake hits in 2005---money is wasted---now instead of 72---they can only afford 18. Looking at Pakistan financial condition----india changes its mind on the peace deal. The rest is down hill.

The Jf 17 does not do anything for Pakistan to bring the temperature down---it does not project power.

Years ago---on this forum I wrote about the power of BVR battle----how it is as great an equalizer of things as was the inception of AK47 into the battle field. There were not too many believers over here. A smaller aircraft with a better BVR missile will turn the tables on its larger opponent---but for show---psychological warfare size matters.

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

I am a firm believer that the purpose of a major weapons system is not to win you the war ( even though that is the purpose ) but the purpose is to bring your opponent to the peace table. Because then it becomes futile to be in a stalemate and it is not worth it to continue the fight.

That is where Pakistan was between 2003 and 2005. The sanctions were off---funds were available---aircraft were available---but the paf had no urgency. It was an easy choice between the F 16 and the F 18's. They should have picked either aircraft, signed the dotted line and released the funds in a timely manner.

But no---there was drama----a year on the grippen 2 years on the rafale---a total wastage of time---pissed off the French---pissed off the swedes. After wasting all that time---they decide in 2005 or 2006 to order F 16's. The earthquake hits in 2005---money is wasted---now instead of 72---they can only afford 18. Looking at Pakistan financial condition----india changes its mind on the peace deal. The rest is down hill.

The Jf 17 does not do anything for Pakistan to bring the temperature down---it does not project power.

Years ago---on this forum I wrote about the power of BVR battle----how it is as great an equalizer of things as was the inception of AK47 into the battle field. There were not too many believers over here. A smaller aircraft with a better BVR missile will turn the tables on its larger opponent---but for show---psychological warfare size matters.

We need three 4.5 Generation platforms 5th Generation would come at least after 10 years but we need 4.5th Generation Jet three 4.5th ;platforms if we to keep a defensive approach but a fourth 4.5th if we want to go for offensive fight

 

[vizier]

Jf 17 block 2 has currently two advanced points over Su 30 mki of india. One is its lower cost, maintenance and replacability and the second is much lower radar cross section than Su 30. MKI on the other hand currently has more powerful radar, cargo for more missiles and possibly similar ew capability. In block 3 JF 17 radar would be equalized as well as improved ew capability maybe towed decoys and more rcs reduction measures as well. For interceptor missions Jf f17 has adventages that will be increased further. For ground attack and naval strike missions Su 35 types with large payload may suit but only with proven ew capability as they would be open targets for high altitude long range sams of opposing navy and land forces. Foremost I think it is better to spend more on HQ-9 high altitude sams to protect strategic assets like airbases and nukes as there seems to be a 1967 arab-israel type of gap there for sudden preemptive strikes.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

Hi,

So it is like a Kabaddi match---we see an opponent and then we send someone to fight.

They have 240 SU 30's---we have 70 F16's---so what we gonna do.

We are purchasing used F-16 soon you will get the news and we don't need to match numbers which we can't, better training with proven platforms like F-16 we can match Indian aggressive force.

We are purchasing used F-16 soon you will get the news and we don't need to match numbers which we can't, better training with proven platforms like F-16 we can match Indian aggressive force.

a typo error win me a thanks from @MastanKhan

 

[Eagle Claw]

Guys can it be possible that PAF could get the Assistance of Mig Corporation in the development of Block 3 or Block 4. And what will be the Effect on its Performance if we place a TVC Engine on it ?

Besides I absolutely Agree with @MastanKhan 's Point of View. People are saying that JF-17 Thunder can Fire BVR do this and that. Dear folks ! If Thunder Can Fire BVR, Does Foes Aircrafts are not Loaded with BVRs ?
Will they fire Flowers at you in Actual War Scenario ??
People Saying that if we even loose 200 Thunders in war and Kill 80 Su-30s + other Mirages and jets !
Peeps those 200 Thunders have Pilots inside whose life is also Equally Precious !
Don't be Selfish and Cold.

 

[A2Z]

Hi,

JF 17 is the wrong air craft for the armed forces of Pakistan. Even though it has been inducted with a great fanfare and extremely positive results---this aircraft is a little too small aircraft to do the job right when facing the likes of IAF.

On its own merit---the JF 17---for its size has one of the best overall packages available in the industry---air to air---air to ground and air to sea---.

So---in order to have balance in its air arm---Pakistan will have to purchase multiple other platforms.

We have the F16's and possibly no more F 16's----.

We need a medium strike aircraft---with the likes of a JH7B with aesa---this aircraft is like the tornado---. This aircraft can carry 8-10 anti ship missiles and still can defend itself with BVR missiles as well. In the Growler mode, this aircraft take the potency to fight back the enemy to a new level.

Pakistan also need an air superiority type aircraft----like the J 10B----or the J 11---and then on top of that---Pakistan will be looking forward to a stealth type plane like the J 31.

Pakistan military is missing the strike capability of a Tornado type of aircraft in its arsenal---and for that---PAF has failed to deliver.

The procurement of fighter aircraft needs to be taken away from the Pakistan air force---a 3 member team formed with the decision to buy that is needed.

Basically---PAF CANNOT be TRUSTED to buy the right type of equipment---. Like in the case of Saab aircraft----. Paf wanted all saab aircraft and Musharraf put a stop to it and got 4 or 5 chinese variants to have diversity and lines open in case of sanctions from Sweden.

Musharraf's decision proved to ve correct----the Chinese aircraft are as potent or better than the Swedish.

In a similar manner---Musharraf made the deal to buy 36 J 10's---. He knew in his heart and he knew from his experience that the JF 17 as good as it is in its class with all the paraphernalia---is not the answer to the needs of Pakistan.

Pakistan needed a bigger and a more potent aircraft-----.

Now Paf may have thought otherwise----but if you ook at the history of Paf since 1971----it is mostly of failures---bad decisions---lack of understanding the level of threat---at times total ignorance of issues at hand---at times not sharing the level of imminent threat to the national assets-----.

Which basically leads it be acting more like a person who is acting like someone with least concern rather than one who has the best interest of the Pakistan.

I totally agree with you that only jft and f16 are not enough for our security but the real question is, does our budget allow us to purchase such things? No doubt J10 is something we need but can we buy them in enough numbers and still have sufficient cash in our pockets that when IAF posses a threat with 5th gen fighters we can go for j31 or j20?
Lastly shouldn't we go for air defense systems rather than 4.5 gen aircraft and finally go for 5th gen when the time is right and until then save money for them?

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

JF 17 is the wrong air craft for the armed forces of Pakistan. Even though it has been inducted with a great fanfare and extremely positive results---this aircraft is a little too small aircraft to do the job right when facing the likes of IAF.

On its own merit---the JF 17---for its size has one of the best overall packages available in the industry---air to air---air to ground and air to sea---.

So---in order to have balance in its air arm---Pakistan will have to purchase multiple other platforms.

We have the F16's and possibly no more F 16's----.

We need a medium strike aircraft---with the likes of a JH7B with aesa---this aircraft is like the tornado---. This aircraft can carry 8-10 anti ship missiles and still can defend itself with BVR missiles as well. In the Growler mode, this aircraft take the potency to fight back the enemy to a new level.

Pakistan also need an air superiority type aircraft----like the J 10B----or the J 11---and then on top of that---Pakistan will be looking forward to a stealth type plane like the J 31.

Pakistan military is missing the strike capability of a Tornado type of aircraft in its arsenal---and for that---PAF has failed to deliver.

The procurement of fighter aircraft needs to be taken away from the Pakistan air force---a 3 member team formed with the decision to buy that is needed.

Basically---PAF CANNOT be TRUSTED to buy the right type of equipment---. Like in the case of Saab aircraft----. Paf wanted all saab aircraft and Musharraf put a stop to it and got 4 or 5 chinese variants to have diversity and lines open in case of sanctions from Sweden.

Musharraf's decision proved to ve correct----the Chinese aircraft are as potent or better than the Swedish.

In a similar manner---Musharraf made the deal to buy 36 J 10's---. He knew in his heart and he knew from his experience that the JF 17 as good as it is in its class with all the paraphernalia---is not the answer to the needs of Pakistan.

Pakistan needed a bigger and a more potent aircraft-----.

Now Paf may have thought otherwise----but if you ook at the history of Paf since 1971----it is mostly of failures---bad decisions---lack of understanding the level of threat---at times total ignorance of issues at hand---at times not sharing the level of imminent threat to the national assets-----.

Which basically leads it be acting more like a person who is acting like someone with least concern rather than one who has the best interest of the Pakistan.

you are absolutely right..now bring the $$$$ for that...
we cant even induct the too small(150) too cheap(less than BAE trainer) thunder and you are talking about heavy fighters!!!??

and if your theory is quality better than numbers so i will say 18-20 f-35s or 36- J 10s will also run out of missiles and logistics vs a 250 thunders(price to price comparison)

if you talk about distance, thunder having a radius of 600km is enough for it..

do you think sweden and pakistan both are idiots while facing the soviets and indians..

1971 is impossible situation with minimum air power and being outnumbered by 10 to 1 in professional army in addition to unlimited number of rebels..it was a political failure not a military one..even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory

Guys can it be possible that PAF could get the Assistance of Mig Corporation in the development of Block 3 or Block 4. And what will be the Effect on its Performance if we place a TVC Engine on it ?

Besides I absolutely Agree with @MastanKhan 's Point of View. People are saying that JF-17 Thunder can Fire BVR do this and that. Dear folks ! If Thunder Can Fire BVR, Does Foes Aircrafts are not Loaded with BVRs ?
Will they fire Flowers at you in Actual War Scenario ??
People Saying that if we even loose 200 Thunders in war and Kill 80 Su-30s + other Mirages and jets !
Peeps those 200 Thunders have Pilots inside whose life is also Equally Precious !
Don't be Selfish and Cold.

and what do you recommend? ? if you have better idea, i am all here

Hi,

I am a firm believer that the purpose of a major weapons system is not to win you the war ( even though that is the purpose ) but the purpose is to bring your opponent to the peace table. Because then it becomes futile to be in a stalemate and it is not worth it to continue the fight.

That is where Pakistan was between 2003 and 2005. The sanctions were off---funds were available---aircraft were available---but the paf had no urgency. It was an easy choice between the F 16 and the F 18's. They should have picked either aircraft, signed the dotted line and released the funds in a timely manner.

But no---there was drama----a year on the grippen 2 years on the rafale---a total wastage of time---pissed off the French---pissed off the swedes. After wasting all that time---they decide in 2005 or 2006 to order F 16's. The earthquake hits in 2005---money is wasted---now instead of 72---they can only afford 18. Looking at Pakistan financial condition----india changes its mind on the peace deal. The rest is down hill.

The Jf 17 does not do anything for Pakistan to bring the temperature down---it does not project power.

Years ago---on this forum I wrote about the power of BVR battle----how it is as great an equalizer of things as was the inception of AK47 into the battle field. There were not too many believers over here. A smaller aircraft with a better BVR missile will turn the tables on its larger opponent---but for show---psychological warfare size matters.

even before earth quake the idea was never for new 72, we could have never afford it that..read the reports..the idea was 36 new and 36 old
the older ones were through EDA with upgrades via Pakistan funds, and even in the newer ones 18 were optional

so majority of the deal went through if you count the Jordanian fighters in..

a few more f-16s wouldnt have made a big difference

i doubt we could have afforded the second batch of f-16s anyway, that is the reason why it was optional in the first time with hope of econmical turn around in 2005 that didnt happened due to terrorism rather than earth quake..

sweden were pissed by indian MRCA not by PAF ..you are an intelligent guy yet some how you fail to grasp simple marketing and politics.

 

[iioal malik]

How can we take you serious Mastan khan...... when according to you reham khan wify of imran khan the only future hope we have ?.....

Pakistan air force n people of pakistan take alot of pride on JF17..... hips of documentaries about all the hard work which took alot of time and thought behind this aircraft let alone it's fighting capabilites...if given the chance INSHALLAH This medium size fighter will give you run for your money it has everything for the pilot in the need of crisis..

Why don't you find some other work when you have free time........ like charity work ??bcos these kind of threads are full of bull crap ....

 

[volatile]

Alas this has happened to all readers I have been following development from 2003 JFT frankly in the last 12 years people have tried to made thunder equivalent to F-35 and in the league of Raptor by themselves .Role of thunder always was to supplement PAF and give capability to do what we were doing with very expensive machinery .Going with more F-16 makes sense as used ones are cheap and no further infrastructure is required .Block 52 is more like cocaine now to PAF as it bring such potent capabilities such that all MLU kits are based on this vision .PAF always looks to counter IAF inventory and frankly other than Mirage (after MLU) and Rafael we can pretty much take care of IAF in our own territory even the might flankers .As what I understood Indians have been smart by involving all the world air forces in there tender and eliminating any chances for PAF to get good package remember French Avionics deal . PAF is counting for IAF to make decision on MMRCA and lets see what we will be against up and trust me we already have decided which platform we are going for (don't get surprised) its just a matter of time .For JFT its a wonder ful cheap ,multi role jet and it is far far better than flying 40 year old mirages ,Rocket strapped F7s even though they were best aircraft of the time but in this modern air scenarios they are not worthy .SO I believe PAF are working to acquire 2 platforms or one possibly with 18 more block52 coming soon if this doesn't happened than get ready for 2 platforms one for French and other one as 5 th Gen .
Stop Abusing JFT in 25 Mil PK Rs get a fighter to do all this with out string attached

 

[syedali73]

..even without indian interference east pakistan would have fallen, india simply stole the glory.

Only if I could weigh these words in gold.

As what I understood Indians have been smart by involving all the world air forces in there tender and eliminating any chances for PAF to get good package remember French Avionics deal.

Smart? not really my friend. The were dumb for by closing all the doors for PAF they have only helped their arch enemies i.e. China and Pakistan. China, by forcing them to work harder and faster on domestically produced yet high end technology, and Pakistan by forcing her not to rely too heavily on embargo -prone military hardware.

 

[Sine Nomine]

@MastanKhan i agree with you sir,many peoples cant understand that,they just stick to term that
"JFT is not meant for that"
It is total idiotic that India will field only Mig-21 against JFT,the truth is that India may never use them but instead they are just being used to maintain squadrons and flying hours.In any conflict (minus China),India would at least send 200+ 4+ gen fighters to attack what we have just 76 F-16 and 100 JFT now look what they have to do...
1)A2A. (F-16,JFT)
2)CAS. (F-16,JFT)
3)CAP. (F-16,JFT)
4)SEAD & DEAD.(JFT)
5)Bombing of strategics targets. (Nothing)
6)Deep strike Mission a.ka. DAS. (18 F-16 blk 52 what if they are lost)
7)Patrolling over sea lines. (F-16,JFT)
8)Escorting Anti-Submarine Aircraft.(No one can do this except j-11.jh-7 or Su-35)
Just calculate how much out of these Vital Missions 176 Aircraft will do.
-We have more AWACS to look on enemy and less Fighters to destroy enemy.
-With Small Radar System on JFT you cant expect 100% hit rate of Missiles launched from that against ships.
-JFT has 2 must Fuel tanks which have there own draw backs.

"Pakistan has gained a lot from JFT project,but today 15 aug 2015 sticking to that fighter without combing it with Heavy fighters in 2:1 ratio is suicide."
And last expect a major skirmish with India in BJP's last year of Rule .

 

[Irfan Baloch]

How?Plz enlighten us with regards to parameters and specs.

never make such posts again. read up the JF-17 info poll and understand why it is classed in medium light category. then check up the specs of the llikes ot J10B or J11s etc and understand what they are for.
your posts are meant to make a case about your counter argument. not demanding others to do work for you so that you can reject them without understanding or make another one liner off topic remark.

 

[volatile]

Smart? not really my friend. The were dumb for by closing all the doors for PAF they have only helped their arch enemies i.e. China and Pakistan. China, by forcing them to work harder and faster on domestically produced yet high end technology, and Pakistan by forcing her not to rely too heavily on embargo -prone military hardware.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ this was smart move as European concept of aerial combat is quite different with data link support and communication with other planes ,SAMs they are going more towards Ecentric Networks ,Where as Chinese started to work in this field with better EW suites now but overall capabilities are much inferior .My arguments gets strength by facts like guarding of F-16 by Americans even in Pak for sensitive tech