JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[graphican]

It is amazing that many posters are trying to compare a paper tiger (JF-17 block II) to a mature fighter and also declaring the paper tiger as superior to the existing mature fighter. How ridiculous can this get??

Ridiculous? So are Russians I suppose who's comments became reason of all this discussion. Remember it wasn't Pakistani TV Channel who described JFT to be "Extremely Close" to MIG-29.

Also Russians didn't say JFT NG (Block-II) will be "Extremely Close" to Mig-29s. You might want to go through the video all over again and then we both can laugh.

 

[Quwa]

This is typical Indian logic. Contradicting self-statement all in one post.

In my opinion, in performance, JFT is still a mystery. I trust Nabil and what he mentions but like many Indians, it is also hard for me to believe we have got almost everything we wanted and all so early? I don't know.. may be we were blessed by Diving Help or what.. but like many Indians who are surprised.. I am also surprised.

But there are parameters to see if JFT is indeed that much success as we like to imagine and its international interest helps me decide.

On the side note, since PAF is happy having only F-16s, J-10s and JFTs, it looks like it feels confident that this will be enough to defend this motherland against Indian Flankers and MIGs. This aspect also speaks volumes about performance of J-10s and JFTs. So even though it is hard, I would like to believe that JFT is indeed as good as we are expecting it to be.

Bro...if PAF got what it wanted, it'd be flying 100+ F-16A/Bs in the 1990s; have Sabre II or F-20 instead of F-7s; have BVR at least a decade earlier; and maybe AEW&C before 2000...plus JF-17 would've been a far more sophisticated and advanced design than it is right now. When CAC was conceptualizing Super-7, it specifically asked PAF if it wanted an airframe as sophisticated as JAS-39 (in terms of composite materials, design, etc).

The PAF couldn't afford such a program in terms of time and money...it was trying to finalize Mirage 2000/-5, get its refund on the F-16s, and so on..and there was an urgent need for Super-7. Had it gone for the more sophisticated program, it would've entered service 4-5 years later and maybe not be too exportable to poorer countries. However, had urgency and money not been a problem, then we'd see something similar to Gripen NG right off the bat...instead of waiting on upgrades.

 

[Dazzler]

Very true !!

The induction of MKI by the Indians and proposed LCA worked as a catalyst that turned basic Super 7 into what is known today as jf-17 so Indians are to an extent, responsible for its development.

Basic super 7 was indeed basic fighter in every way i.e conventional 3rd generation in terms of overall capability along with MMI, cockpit, radar was APG-66H (Blue Hawk) by GEC-Macroni, limited capabilities and manual flight controls and mostly dumb weapons and BVR was no where in the scene. This was needed by PAF in early 90s only to fill the low end between, already present were the high end f-16s and low end super 7s were destined to replace F-6s and some early Mirages.

 

[Quwa]

Very true !!

The induction of MKI by the Indians and proposed LCA worked as a catalyst that turned basic Super 7 into what is known today as jf-17 so Indians are to an extent, responsible for its development.

Basic super 7 was indeed basic fighter in every way i.e conventional 3rd generation in terms of overall capability along with MMI, cockpit, radar was APG-66H (Blue Hawk) by GEC-Macroni, limited capabilities and manual flight controls and mostly dumb weapons and BVR was no where in the scene. This was needed by PAF in early 90s only to fill the low end between, already present were the high end f-16s and low end super 7s were destined to replace F-6s and some early Mirages.

Yep...but something forced PAF to invest further in upscaling JF-17, hence support for DSI, better radar, better ECM/EW, etc. In addition, there is additional focus in really enhancing Block-II & Block-III compared to Block-I...i.e. more composite usage for lighter weight, lower RCS and to achieve better aerodynamic design, enhanced payload and range, etc. The seniors at PakDef believe the Block-II (or at least Block-III) will be similar to Gripen NG...but I want to see how far we'll go in terms of using composites in airframe.

 

[Materialistic]

Until the JF-17 Block II flies with all the specs that people here are touting will remain just specs on the paper.

I for never celebrated about the news of stopping of Russian engines. I was an advocate of selling of those smoky and underpowered engines to Pakistanis.

Dear linking park, I do like your songs a lot and now it seems that you are making me a fan of hypocrisy too.

First get your facts right before posting senselessly, PAF ain't getting smoky engines that IAF has.

Secondly, Here you are blaming Pakistanis of comparing paper specs with a mature fighter, and on the other hand you yourself are talking about upgrade of your migs which will happen in 2013. Three years Later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is your own post of paper comparison

The up-gradation of Mig-29s has already started last year and will finish by 2013. Please don't compare Chinese avionics that you have now to Russian avionics. If Chinese avionics were so good you wouldn't have gone for western avionics. Despite avionics, Mig-29 has superior maneuvering capabilities, payload capacity and speed compared to JF-17.

So, isn't it a paper spec comparison on your end rather than ours!!!!

We already have thunders in our inventories so we are talking about their capabilities and you are considering the upgraded migs of 2013 to be available now !!!

This way we can compare thunder's Block III with your sukhoi's and that will still be justifiable.

So stay in present and talk about current smoky and well under performing migs than that of future versions.

 

[Dazzler]

PAF has a habit of pushing things more often than not. Chinese friends know this for a long long time. This habit ignited with the induction of First F-6 when Gondola tanks were made for our babies and then Chinese also opted for it. So, it makes sense if they are pushing ahead with JFT and what we have seen in the last four years (since 4th prototype onwards) is just a glimpse of what is yet to come. I tell you that during testing phase, PAF pilots did not use it like a new born baby, on the contrary, they kept pushing the throttle every now and then, meaning that JFT was put through rigorous trials and tests quite early in its testing and it proved its worth every time. It is not easy to win PAFs confidence for any fighter that early, ask the F-104 star fighter. This confidence was the reason why JFT was ferried all the way to Farnborough without much of a hassle and surprised many.

 

[Quwa]

The up-gradation of Mig-29s has already started last year and will finish by 2013. Please don't compare Chinese avionics that you have now to Russian avionics. If Chinese avionics were so good you wouldn't have gone for western avionics. Despite avionics, Mig-29 has superior maneuvering capabilities, payload capacity and speed compared to JF-17.

PAF hasn't gone for Western avionics...in fact, its pushing PAC to develop the avionics for JF-17 (link).

Granted PAF is looking at Western radars from Thales and Selex, but they're just options among other firms, such as China's NRIET. Interestingly, the budget Chinese KLJ-7 (not their best technology) is reasonably close to SMT's Zhuk ME...has that even been completed fleet-wide in IAF yet?

The F-16 MLU's AN/APG-68(V9) has a much longer range, and SMT's radar is just a bit better than JF-17 Block-I by 15km (although minimum range of KLJ-7 at 5m2 was 105km)...and obviously Block-II, III, IV, etc will boast much longer ranges. Funnily enough the point was not to prove that JF-17 is superior to SMT, but "close" and not "leagues behind"...and in Block-II we're bordering on the same description with regards to MiG-35 (keeping it fair all the way through).

Secondly, about maneuverability...PAF pilots repeatedly rated JF-17 very close to F-16A in terms of aerodynamics (link), and F-16A is no brick in front of the MiG-29-series. So lets get past this Pak-JF-17 bashing and accept the fact that its not leagues behind...for all ego's sake, we'll keep it to 'reasonably close' as it has always been.

 

[Trisonics]

Very true !!

The induction of MKI by the Indians and proposed LCA worked as a catalyst that turned basic Super 7 into what is known today as jf-17 so Indians are to an extent, responsible for its development.

Basic super 7 was indeed basic fighter in every way i.e conventional 3rd generation in terms of overall capability along with MMI, cockpit, radar was APG-66H (Blue Hawk) by GEC-Macroni, limited capabilities and manual flight controls and mostly dumb weapons and BVR was no where in the scene. This was needed by PAF in early 90s only to fill the low end between, already present were the high end f-16s and low end super 7s were destined to replace F-6s and some early Mirages.

I completely disagree the credit should infact go to the Americans, I don't need to replay the stories here. It is stated the biggest advantage of JFT is its no-strings-attached freedom it brings

Im still confused..Avionics from French did not come through as required or is still in negotiation..but now you guys claim the current avionics is very good. So is PAF going for western avionics or not?

you guys have started to contradict from what people said in the JF-17 thread and yes..I claim this since I have read the thread in its entirety

So are you guys still waiting for western avionics? or no? or are you guys saying the avionics currently on the JFT is better than the avionics on the MIG-29?

 

[Quwa]

I completely disagree the credit should infact go to the Americans, I don't need to replay the stories here. It is stated the biggest advantage of JFT is its no-strings-attached freedom it brings

Im still confused..Avionics from French did not come through as required or is still in negotiation..but now you guys claim the current avionics is very good. So is PAF going for western avionics or not?

you guys have started to contradict from what people said in the JF-17 thread and yes..I claim this since I have read the thread in its entirety

So are you guys still waiting for western avionics? or no? or are you guys saying the avionics currently on the JFT is better than the avionics on the MIG-29?

Western avionics are an option for the next block of JF-17...but the general point of the "next block" is to be better than the previous, irrespective of where the subsystems come from.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I completely disagree the credit should infact go to the Americans, I don't need to replay the stories here.

Does your story involve a plane called J-7 MF, or the initial Super Seven plane?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Let hearsay be hearsay. Let's discuss based on available facts.

I didnt know that the pilot whom operates the JF17 would be considered a hearsay , i would take his word any day over any source you might post. According to the pilot who operates the JF17; it has a Thrust to Weight Ratio of 1.1 and according to him it is more maneuverable than the F16A (i am repeating this a second time ). I suggest you also take a look at the videos of the F16A and look how maneuverable and agile that bird is to get a better sense of JF17's maneuverability and agility. One thing is for sure and that is that the RD93 that the PAF has received are the upgraded versions, hence they produce more thrust giving the JF17's a TWR of 1.1. JF17 in its current form is more than capable of taking any plane in the IAF inventory one on one except the SU30MKI, but add the other multipliers that PAF possesses and it is capable of taking on the SU30MKI.

 

[Dazzler]

Indian friends love to live in bollywood fantasies so let them remain there and save your energy. They will deny anyone who appreciates the JFT without any remorse.

 

[WAQAS119]

Amazing to see that Indians are not believing Russians this time around but were jumping up and down when Russian said that Russian PAK-FA will excel it rivals in all departments. lol

 

[Gucci]

Indian friends love to live in bollywood fantasies so let them remain there and save your energy. They will deny anyone who appreciates the JFT without any remorse.

bollywood dont create air fantasies

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

Where are the counter claims, the only claim i have heard from our Indian friends is that the MIG 29 is superior because it houses 2 engines compared to JF17 which houses one. If this is the logic my Indian friends will use, their is pretty much no point of debating. My suggestion is that please go through the JF17 thread and learn more about the capabilities of this plane instead of posting horse sh**.

JF17's avionics are comparable to F16 Block 40's, features a Multi Dopple Radar, TWR 1.1, more maneuverable but a little but less agile than the Block 15 which is the most maneuverable and agile out of the entire F16 series. The plane's worth $20 million, not bad if you ask me for the capabilities it is offering. It has consistently hammered the F16 in close dog fights, an area which the F16 is considered the master off. Also i don't think i need to remind you that pilots who have flown the F16 and MIG29 find the F16 to be a better aircraft overall. If my memory serves me correct; everytime the F16 has gone up against the MIG29 in combat, it has emerged victorious.

Hi Notorious Eagle,
Why are you claiming TWR of 1.1 for JF-17.
Refer below the Official specifications given by PAC Karma.
Now Lets calculate the TWR with given figures.

-TWR with Full afterburner= Max Combat Thrust/ (Empty weight + Internal Fuel)
= 19200/ (14520 +5100)
= 0.987 TWR

-TWR with Max Dry Thrust= Max Dry Thrust / (Empty weight + Internal Fuel)
= 11100/ (14520 + 5100)
= 0.565 TWR

Although it is often claim that the max speed of JF-17 is 1.8 mach. However the official manufacturer's document is stating it as 1.6 Mach .