JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[INS]

Yes. We can't compare JF-17 and F-22. Even if we had accurate data from their developers, JF-17 is 20million dollar plane and F/A 22 200 million dollar.

Two very different league.

You could buy 10 JF-17s for one F-22.


I think you are really struggling with the logic here.......

Mere Bhai whats your logic i really not able to understand
Cheap planes are batter ??? is this one ???

Yar whose specifications are batter thats batter (i think this is right logic ) And Mig29 SMT is much batter than Jf 17 in all specification.

 

[Donatello]

Mere Bhai whats your logic i really not able to understand
Cheap planes are batter ??? is this one ???

Yar whose specifications are batter thats batter (i think this is right logic ) And Mig29 SMT is much batter than Jf 17 in all specification.

I am just replying to your posts which i think i should stop now.

I never said cheap planes are better. What i am saying is Comparing MIG 29 and JF-17 only makes sense when we have equal data.

Where did you get the F-22 in from?

 

[mjnaushad]

JF17 is close to mig29 in current situation with 10 million less price ?? how ??

But Sir we just want to know were that was close to mig29
And by your logic any cheap fighter will be converted in advanced with money .
But sorry we are talking about current one not about block 2

Same old habbit of running around in circles........

 

[INS]

I am just replying to your posts which i think i should stop now.

I never said cheap planes are better. What i am saying is Comparing MIG 29 and JF-17 only makes sense when we have equal data.

Where did you get the F-22 in from?

I think we have sufficient data for both the planes to compare with each other.

 

[Tajdar adil]

well i dont have any thing to say.

 

[WAQAS119]

Radar of Mig29 SMT

Zhuk-M (Export Designation Zhuk-ME)

The N010M Zhuk-M is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29SMT upgrade, the Zhuk-ME finding success on export MiG-29 aircraft to countries like India. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[5] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once. The radar has a weight of 220 kg and a scanning area of +/- 85 degrees in azimuth and +56/-40 degrees in elevation. The antenna is an electronically scanned slotted planar array and has a diameter of 624 mm.


And JF 17 using NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar

# Range:

* Look-up: 75 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]
* Look-down: 35 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]

# Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode

so where JFT stands near to Mig 29 SMT


Another factor is max speed and you also admit that Range and Payload wise Mig29 is superior

Firstly,
3m2 RCS for small plane like JF17 Thunder and F16 is too big! Thus proves how credible your data is.

Secondly,
there are some things that need to be cleared up. Long time ago the ACM stated that the JF-17 will utilize composites in its production...that means the weight will be reduced, and the range, TWR, speed, and payload will go up. And consiquently RCS will further be reduced.
No one still knows whether composites has been added to it structure or not as PAF like to keep everything secret. Only potential customers will be having exact details.

Thirdly,
* Mig29 is way faster than JF-17.
* Mig29 is way more maneuvarable than JF-17.
but does that matter? Obviously it does but not to the level that people think of it. Their must be a mix of stability and manuverability (as Death By Choclate has already expalined you in detail -link-) Mig29 can push any pilot over his limits thus super manuverability becomes disadvantage. Here again stable platform like JF17 with the help of HMS can outperform Mig29. This is also already explained by Mark Sein on same thread. -link-
Radar is inferior to Mig29's radar but it is only for our first 50 JF-17, which are meant to replace A-5 and Miraj's and are for A2G purposes. Our potential customers will sulry get the radar they think suits well to their need. These options include KLJ10, RC400, Grifo and KLJ7 obviously.
Combination of above radars with SD-10 is gona hurt in the eyes of many people with envy. SD-10, which we have recently saw in farnborough is based on R-77 and both are Mach 4.


Fourthly,
For your kind information, F-22 Raptor's top speed is believed to be 1.6 to 1.8 Mach. Will you count Raptor inferior to Flanker???
Speed isn't the only factor that elaborates the significance of a fighter.

Fifthly,
At $15/18million a piece, this is going to be a great sell to Africa, Iran, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Egypt (remember they didnt get AMRAAMS, whereas Sd-10/Pl-12 and/or Pl-11 will come with the JF-17 to give EAF a BVR capability), etc. All of these countries are believed to be the customers of Russia but not any more. Also they will likely get their choice of Chinese or Western avionics. This will lower the price for all concerned. However, even at $23million, the aircraft is a good deal with the capabilities it comes with.

All above factors including many other factors are considered by Air Forces to compare too planes and to choose one of them.


Regards,

 

[INS]

can any one please explain how to multi quote a single post

 

[WAQAS119]

That is the reality. The Jf-17 that you are trying to project doesn't exist while Mig-29SMT upgrades in India has already started.

It does exist! Work on JF17 Block II is going on smoothly and world, which include Russia and Turkey who are playing with world's top weapons, has appreciated JF17.

So, there is a significant difference between them already.

Who denied???

Moreover, there is no news on any deals that have been struck for better engine, better radar, better avionics in case of JF-17. These are still in the process of negotiations. And even after such upgrades, they need to be tested again for reliability purposes and that will take a lot of time.

Wait buddy wait! This is not subzi mandi but Arms market where negotiations are behind the curtain.
For you this is expected as everything in Indian ariforce is given whoooohaaaaaaa..... and IAF buying paper pins is made public and everytime their is a celebration.

So, comparison between JF-17 and Mig-29 right now doesn't hold ground as Mig-29 clearly has the superiority.

Mig-29SMT has superiority over JF-17 in terms of carrying payload, speed, maneuverability and radar.

To those who claim that JF-17 can match Mig-29 in dog fighting abilities, See if JF-17 is capable of these maneuvers that Mig-29 is capable of

YouTube - Mig 29 - Loop
YouTube - Mig 29 - 6G Blackout !

Interesting thing in this video is not pulling of 6G but what happens to pilot during pulling 6g! Had he blacked out in the same way during dog fight then he would have been bye bye!
Also these airshow manuvers are use less in real dogfight where HMS will roast super manver Mig29 alive.

I ask them to show me one video where JF-17 has done a vertical loop or pulled vertical G.

For manuverability F16 is world's renowned fighter plane. Lets see how JF17 prototype competes with it.

For Verticle loop you have to wait till JF17 participates in any airshow. JF17 is newbie, even then it has made many to have sleepless nights.

 

[INS]

Firstly,
3m2 RCS for small plane like JF17 Thunder and F16 is too big! Thus proves how credible your data is.

The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

 

[INS]

Thirdly,
* Mig29 is way faster than JF-17.
* Mig29 is way more maneuvarable than JF-17.
but does that matter? Obviously it does but not to the level that people think of it. Their must be a mix of stability and manuverability (as Death By Choclate has already expalined you in detail -link-) Mig29 can push any pilot over his limits thus super manuverability becomes disadvantage. Here again stable platform like JF17 with the help of HMS can outperform Mig29. This is also already explained by Mark Sein on same thread. -link-
Radar is inferior to Mig29's radar but it is only for our first 50 JF-17, which are meant to replace A-5 and Miraj's and are for A2G purposes. Our potential customers will sulry get the radar they think suits well to their need. These options include KLJ10, RC400, Grifo and KLJ7 obviously.
Combination of above radars with SD-10 is gona hurt in the eyes of many people with envy. SD-10, which we have recently saw in farnborough is based on R-77 and both are Mach 4.

* Mig29 is way faster than JF-17.
* Mig29 is way more maneuvarable than JF-17.

Mig s radar is much much batter than jf17
And talk about current radar not about future upgrade

 

[INS]

Fourthly,
For your kind information, F-22 Raptor's top speed is believed to be 1.6 to 1.8 Mach. Will you count Raptor inferior to Flanker???
Speed isn't the only factor that elaborates the significance of a fighter.

Sir, we already discuss about RADAR, batter maneuvarable, range now speed

what else left ???


mileage ???

 

[WAQAS119]

The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.

KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

Mr. Expert! this is not RCS of Thunder but range of KLJ-7 against fighter jet having RCS of 3m2.

As you are a kid, so let me further explain you that KLJ-7 is a radar used in current JF-17. Block II will be having KLJ-10 and/or Western Radars. lol

 

[INS]

Fifthly,
At $15/18million a piece, this is going to be a great sell to Africa, Iran, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Egypt (remember they didnt get AMRAAMS, whereas Sd-10/Pl-12 and/or Pl-11 will come with the JF-17 to give EAF a BVR capability), etc. All of these countries are believed to be the customers of Russia but not any more. Also they will likely get their choice of Chinese or Western avionics. This will lower the price for all concerned. However, even at $23million, the aircraft is a good deal with the capabilities it comes with.

All above factors including many other factors are considered by Air Forces to compare too planes and to choose one of them.

Regards,

Yes thts true jf17 is cheaper than Mig 29
if jf17 is fit for any ones requirement so it good but buddy if any one need batter plane so why they select less capable ???

 

[INS]

Mr. Expert! this is not RCS of Thunder but range of KLJ-7 against fighter jet having RCS of 3m2.

As you are a kid, so let me further explain you that KLJ-7 is a radar used in current JF-17. Block II will be having KLJ-10 and/or Western Radars. lol

I think we are comparing radar of both planes

BTW what is RCS????

 

[WAQAS119]

And talk about current radar not about future upgrade

Current JF17 are not for A2A purpose but for A2G purpose, so comparing them doesn't make sense.
Our current JF17 configuration is for replacing A-5 and Miraj. But if a customer wants current configuration instead of block2, he can get it at much lower cost compared to Mig29.