JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[Quwa]

Why not you comparing Radar Range, Max Speed, Payload capacity.............. just posting that its cheaper and small that doesn't make it equivalent to mig

The premise never was equivalent or superior to MiG, but 'near'...and my problem was not even 'inferior' but "leagues ahead" bit which implies JF-17 stands very little to no chance. Reality is quite different, it can hold its own...and as I said countless times before...it may not be as good, but its good enough to be a contemporary and not "league(s) behind". MiG-35 is not facing a fighter from the 1980s that never changed or will never change one bit in terms of its ECM/EW, weapon-systems or even radar change.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Or what else make one aircraft superior to other ?? range, max speed, radar range
By this logic we can compare any aircraft with any one

You want to see how Mig29 is league ahead so i have to post specification of both the aircrafts but i think that was off-topic here

Who said range of an aircraft, max speed makes or even radar can make an aircraft superior ?? Where does it says ??

If an operator needs an aircraft to have a range of 2,000KM, as it satisfies its objectives for aerial warfare, why would it be needing an aircraft with 5,000Km range ?? The operator needs to see where its requirements can be satisfied effectively and efficiently.

If an operator needs an aircraft to take payloads of 4,000KG and it satisfies its operational requirements effectively and efficiently, why would it be needing an aircraft to carry 8,000KG payload.

Same for radar, the big aircraft may have a big radar with 300KM range, but can the radar pick up the smaller fighter with reduced RCS at 300KM, if not, then whts the use of such a big radar.

Here the Zhuk-ME specifications:

" The Zhuk-ME features steered array radar antenna and is intended for the Mig-29 aircraft. It can detect airborne targets with a five square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) at ranges of 110-120 kilometers in the forward hemisphere or 50 kilometers in the rear hemisphere while tracking 10 targets and engaging four of them simultaneously. It can track up to two ground/sea targets simultaneously. In the air-to-ground mode, the Zhuk-ME is capable of detecting armored formations at ranges of 25 kilometers and railway bridges at ranges of 120 kilometers. "

Zhuk-ME

Zhuk radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the range for this radar is 120-200KM detection range for different variants and the Mig-29SMT is supposed to be having Zhuk-ME has a 120KM range for 5m2 RCS radar. Do you know the RCS of JF-17 ??

JF-17s radar has 105+KM range for 3m2 RCS target.

So now just compare the radars, there is no superiority for Mig-29SMT that i can see, JF-17s RCS is much less then 3m2, thus JF-17 will be picked up by the Mig-29SMT at less then 100KM range, that also is very probable, it may even be more less, while JF-17 can detect the Mig-29SMT at 100+KM due to its large size, Mig-29s are supposed to be somewhere around the 3m2 RCS target or may be more as some sources put it at 5m2.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

So if its 5m2, be assured, JF-17s will pick it up at 120KM or more and engage it way before the Mig-29 can pick up JF-17 and engage, so who got the upper hand ??
So JF-17 seems to atleast at par or even superior to Mig-29SMT in the radar category.

Even the AESA Zhuk-AE is said to have a 130-140KM range and that would be for 5m2 RCS targets, what about lesser ones ??

http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-1-07/aesaradar_zhuk_AE.htm

Now you consider Mig-29 to be superior to JF-17 based on just range and payload ?? Very absurd.

And in dog fights, i can assure you JF-17 will be very good or even superior and one hell of an opponent for Mig-29s, except may be for the TVC capable Mig-35s, which can also be negated with HMS.

Thus, there is no superiority left with Mig-29 except for the range and payload, which are not definitive edge to consider superiority of a fighter.

Hope much is now clear to you about who is superior and on what basis.

In BVR as well as dog fight engagement, JF-17 can be an equal or superior opponent to Mig-29, and here we see who is more superior and who isn't.

 

[WAQAS119]

I found an article by a Russian, few points worth reading are quoted below:

Is fighter X better than fighter Y?​

This is the kind of question that gets discussed all the time, but doesn't really have an answer.

First, best for what? Every fighter is designed with a particular set of requirements in mind. "Fighter" is a fairly general term that covers a multitude of missions. A Tornado F.3 or a MiG-31 is an excellent long-range interceptor, but you wouldn't want to send one of them up against an F-16 or an Su-27 in a dogfight.

Most of the modern generation of fighters are fairly similar in performance. Leaving out specialised interceptors such as the Tornado and MiG-31 mentioned above, if almost any two modern fighters came up against each other in a dogfight, pilot skill would certainly be the main deciding factor. We can (and certainly will) argue endlessly about the relative merits of, say, F-16 vs Sea Harrier, or F-22 vs Su-35 (both the subject of recent discussion on this newsgroup; Harriers versus conventional fighters is a particularly hardy perennial), and there are real differences there; but such technical details are not the most important thing in combat.

 

[INS]

So the range for this radar is 120-200KM detection range for different variants and the Mig-29SMT is supposed to be having Zhuk-ME has a 120KM range for 5m2 RCS radar. Do you know the RCS of JF-17 ??

JF-17s radar has 105+KM range for 3m2 RCS target.

So now just compare the radars, there is no superiority for Mig-29SMT that i can see, JF-17s RCS is much less then 3m2, thus JF-17 will be picked up by the Mig-29SMT at less then 100KM range, that also is very probable, it may even be more less, while JF-17 can detect the Mig-29SMT at 100+KM due to its large size, Mig-29s are supposed to be somewhere around the 3m2 RCS target or may be more as some sources put it at 5m2.



So if its 5m2, be assured, JF-17s will pick it up at 120KM or more and engage it way before the Mig-29 can pick up JF-17 and engage, so who got the upper hand ??
So JF-17 seems to atleast at par or even superior to Mig-29SMT in the radar category.

Now you consider Mig-29 to be superior to JF-17 based on just range and payload ?? Very absurd.

And in dog fights, i can assure you JF-17 will be very good or even superior and one hell of an opponent for Mig-29s, except may be for the TVC capable Mig-35s, which can also be negated with HMS.

Thus, there is no superiority left with Mig-29 except for the range and payload, which are not definitive edge to consider superiority of a fighter.

Hope much is now clear to you about who is superior and on what basis.

In BVR as well as dog fight engagement, JF-17 can be an equal or superior opponent to Mig-29, and here we see who is more superior and who isn't.

Radar of Mig29 SMT

Zhuk-M (Export Designation Zhuk-ME)

The N010M Zhuk-M is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29SMT upgrade, the Zhuk-ME finding success on export MiG-29 aircraft to countries like India. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[5] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once. The radar has a weight of 220 kg and a scanning area of +/- 85 degrees in azimuth and +56/-40 degrees in elevation. The antenna is an electronically scanned slotted planar array and has a diameter of 624 mm.


And JF 17 using NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar

# Range:

* Look-up: 75 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]
* Look-down: 35 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]

# Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode

so where JFT stands near to Mig 29 SMT


Another factor is max speed and you also admit that Range and Payload wise Mig29 is superior

 

[nightcrawler]

ok stop everyone. I will giv an unorthodox reply to Indians who might be eager to hear it from Pakistani

Mig29>>JFT
AGREED

Mikhail Pogosyan; was only stating this with respect to SALE REVIEW

 

[linkinpark]

That's not the reality of the situation...is PAF going to stick to the same JF-17 specifications forever? No. In fact, the next major upgrade will enter production in about 2 years...and the current Block-I will comprise the minority of the PAF JF-17 fleet. The JF-17 will have a lighter airframe and a more powerful engine, this will bridge whatever maneuverability gaps quite a bit (and JF-17 is no flying-brick either). That said, does IAF have the newest MiG-29/35 in service? Have all the Mirage 2000s been upgraded, or at least significant portions of the fleet, yet?

That is the reality. The Jf-17 that you are trying to project doesn't exist while Mig-29SMT upgrades in India has already started. So, there is a significant difference between them already. Moreover, there is no news on any deals that have been struck for better engine, better radar, better avionics in case of JF-17. These are still in the process of negotiations. And even after such upgrades, they need to be tested again for reliability purposes and that will take a lot of time. So, comparison between JF-17 and Mig-29 right now doesn't hold ground as Mig-29 clearly has the superiority.

Mig-29SMT has superiority over JF-17 in terms of carrying payload, speed, maneuverability and radar.

To those who claim that JF-17 can match Mig-29 in dog fighting abilities, I ask them to show me one video where JF-17 has done a vertical loop or pulled vertical G. See if JF-17 is capable of these maneuvers that Mig-29 is capable of

 

[Donatello]

Or what else make one aircraft superior to other ?? range, max speed, radar range
By this logic we can compare any aircraft with any one

You want to see how Mig29 is league ahead so i have to post specification of both the aircrafts but i think that was off-topic here

Your post didn't make anything clearer. Anyone could have copy and pasted that info.

 

[Donatello]

Radar of Mig29 SMT

Zhuk-M (Export Designation Zhuk-ME)

The N010M Zhuk-M is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29SMT upgrade, the Zhuk-ME finding success on export MiG-29 aircraft to countries like India. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[5] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once. The radar has a weight of 220 kg and a scanning area of +/- 85 degrees in azimuth and +56/-40 degrees in elevation. The antenna is an electronically scanned slotted planar array and has a diameter of 624 mm.


And JF 17 using NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar

# Range:

* Look-up: 75 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]
* Look-down: 35 km (for RCS of 3 m2)[1]

# Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode

so where JFT stands near to Mig 29 SMT


Another factor is max speed and you also admit that Range and Payload wise Mig29 is superior

You are mentioning 3m2 RCS for JF-17 Radar and 5m2 RCS for Mig 29.

I am sorry but that is flawed and inconsistent data.

 

[mjnaushad]

Sir
We told to all Pakistani members please compare about specifications of both the planes but no one do that
mod told that this is about someones statement so compare specification(radar, engine) is off topic and person who do that again got banned

So what else you expect ??

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan-13.html#post1087353

I tried but seems like you dont want to read....JF 17 is close to mig in current situation. with 10 M less price. So if i put these 10M in JF 17 it will be much better fighter than Mig 29......In international sales money does matter.


And that does not Include points raised by taimi.......

 

[INS]

You are mentioning 3m2 RCS for JF-17 Radar and 5m2 RCS for Mig 29.

I am sorry but that is flawed and inconsistent data.

Sir
I if this data is incorrect so please provide us correct one.

 

[INS]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...e-mig-29-mikhail-pogosyan-13.html#post1087353

I tried but seems like you dont want to read....JF 17 is close to mig in current situation. with 10 M less price. So if i put these 10M in JF 17 it will be much better fighter than Mig 29......In international sales money does matter.


And that does not Include points raised by taimi.......

JF17 is close to mig29 in current situation with 10 million less price ?? how ??

But Sir we just want to know were that was close to mig29
And by your logic any cheap fighter will be converted in advanced with money .
But sorry we are talking about current one not about block 2

 

[Donatello]

Sir
I if this data is incorrect so please provide us correct one.

That's the problem.

There is no accurate data online, but atleast make it look like more logical. You are quoting Radar Range for RCS of 3m2 for JF-17 and 5m2 for MIG 29.


The 5m2 range for JF-17 is clearly above 100 km.

Also it can detect upto 40 targets and manage 10 of them win Track while scan.

But then again don't just jump to conclusions just because MIG 29 costs more.

 

[INS]

That's the problem.

There is no accurate data online, but atleast make it look like more logical. You are quoting Radar Range for RCS of 3m2 for JF-17 and 5m2 for MIG 29.


The 5m2 range for JF-17 is clearly above 100 km.

Also it can detect upto 40 targets and manage 10 of them win Track while scan.

But then again don't just jump to conclusions just because MIG 29 costs more.

I think we are on online forum and i think we are discussing here online sources

If we apply your logic we cant compare JF 17 with F22 Raptor cause no one release real data

 

[shanixee]

this is the craziest thread ....the members wantto know how the mig 29 is better than the JFT. but the rule is we cannot talk of technical comparisons for prooving a point...... then how exactly do you guys compare your fighters ? with a crystal ball or a magic mirror-"mirror ,mirror on the wall tell me the best of them all"

this forum is getting crazier by the day

This TV channel report has really put boots on the tail of INDIANS..

 

[Donatello]

I think we are on online forum and i think we are discussing here online sources

If we apply your logic we cant compare JF 17 with F22 Raptor cause no one release real data

Yes. We can't compare JF-17 and F-22. Even if we had accurate data from their developers, JF-17 is 20million dollar plane and F/A 22 200 million dollar.

Two very different league.

You could buy 10 JF-17s for one F-22.


I think you are really struggling with the logic here.......