JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates

[MastanKhan]

And our "so called enemy" has also given us death tool, and our so called enemy also has given us drone strikes which had killed thousands of civilians, our "so called enemy" has also given us screwed up helis from third world countries when we wanted them the most , because of our so called enemy we have lost 90billion dollars and in return when they give us a billion dollars people like you start jumping and chanting "hurray yanks" but no one utters a single world when our economy cripples because of their policies and we lost billions. If they have given us 18 block 52s that was just because of their own benefits , that was just a good gesture by them so that Pakistan can remain committed to so called "war on terrorism"

so now you want to equate 40k lives lost+ 90billion lost + crippled economy = 18 block 52+ and amraam? i would any day prefer the former one.

We have learned and learned alot in past years about the yanks and thats why you will not find a single person living in Pakistan as a general public in favour of US , If some puppets on the top of the hierarchy follow yankees orders its because they are being paid by them not because they represent the whole nation

And btw which game are you talking about that Pakistan didn't learn to play!!! The only game i know the yanks have played in last hundred years is let the other countries join their ranks in killing innocents, allowing yanks to kill thousand of innocents on Pakistani soil and in exchange getting block 52s and amraams, is this the game you are talking about...........

We didn't learnt in the past because we didn't had any other options , because we had enemy on our eastern borders we had to keep up with the logistics game to defend ourselves and US was the only source for us at that time so for that we did some mistakes but now when we are diverting ourselves away from them and found other options then people like you are jumping into it.

Have you ever had a glimpse of idea what you want? you are sitting on a see saw , in one moment you are on one side and the next moment you are on opposite side

I still prefer a single jf-17 over 10 f-16s that we buy from yankees , we are still dependent on them in few regards because we don't have alternatives but as soon as we will find them it will be bye bye to yanks

Hi,

Excuses---excuses---excuses---my pakistani brethren are always full of excuse and blame everyone else for their problems----.

You could have gone ahead and executed the al qaeda coming in from tora bora that night---and stuck the heads of Bin laden, Zawaheri, and Azam on poles for the world to see----but they were your islamic brothers at that time and you proudly stated that your islamic brother would not destroy your house---but he wasno islamic brother----he was no one's brother---he waqs a terrorists---he burnt the houses of the pakistanis and killed them with a laugh and a smile on his face----.

While he scr-ewed his new young 17 years old bride----when thousands of muslims were dying---this monster was -f-cukin a new girl-----and this the hero of the islamic world----a new level of disgust---and the pakistani world was clueless.

Instead of playing these games that the pak millitary played---if they had done their jobs in time----life would have been much easier---.

Please---don't blame any one else for the misery----it is your thinking and then your acts---that have gotten you where you are---.


Tempest,




In the sub-continent arena the aim 120 c is the most superior air to air missile in operatrion----it is a game changer----.

When Collin Powell was the sec state---he was asked a question ---- why is there problem with pakistani weapons sales----he openl;y stated it is the pakistanis who are creating problems---they order one thing---we get it approved with congress---it goes to themanufacturer---pakistanis change their minds---ask for something else and the process tarts all over again----.

From previous experiences---pakistan knew what kind of time frame they had to get what they wanted in return of what they had to do----they failed on both fronts----you know why theu failed---because of the bad assessment of pakistani generals about the afghan / taliban / al qaeda situation on one side----and the retaliatory actions by india---.

Pakistan failed to understand the significance of he change in american policy in the sub continent----. India was taken out of the equation---pakistan didnot prepare for that---it failed to take into account what india would do---.

Pakistan also failed to analyze the escape of al qaeda as to what it would do to it in the future----those screw ups cost pakistan what they did---then pakistan started playing this game of going one one country to the other to check this and check that----.

Mr Tempest----wars of today not fought with what you will get tomorrow---but with what you had procured yesterday---.

The u s gave pakistan the carte blanche in 2002---the onus fell on pakistan to make the best of it---manipulate the situation to its advantage----pakistan fc-kued up big time again.

In the world of foreign affairs and foreign relations and strategic issues pakistan is known to have failed in taking advantage of every oppurtunity provided to it for over 60 years---. You know why---because they have people like my colleagues on this board to think for them---.

The u s gave india a bare minimal advantage----indian computer industry created the greatest hoax of the last century----THE Y2K bug FRAUD----the u s opened up its doors a little bit for indian techs and the rest is history----.

On the other hand---the u s has opened its legs for pakistan and pakistan eneded up poking it in his own self---it was so out of touch with what to do----.

The jf 17 ---better than the BLK 52 in current configuration is a pipe's dream---will it ever get better----off course---do the cows come home at night---they do---now don't they.

 

[epinephrine]

I dont mind him......he often makes such "kalabazian"...btw one more thing you could have added....tejas MK 1 would only enter very limited service as the main operational platform is expected to be MK 2 making it the only aircraft whose second version would be operationalized.

india has wasted alot of time n money on tejas n is still doing so.probably some indian defence personnel want to make full use of this project for filling their bank accounts otherwise india has much more advance aircrafts in its fleet.the future indian aircrafts will also be far more advanced then tejas.india plans to have 270 super 30s ,126 rafales,50-60 upgraded n new mig 29s n same number of upgraded mirage 2000s by 2020.a squadron or 2 of the 5th gen FGFA may be by that time.so a low 4th gen plane like tejas doesn't fit at all in this picture.probably it will be used in fighter conversion units

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

India and pakistan---the roots being the same---have a great love affair with their projects----. As pakistan is short on funds---it dumps its projects as soon it doesnot find the right results----but india keeps on going---thinking that it would learn from its mistakes----which doesn't happen either.

If pak had the money---they would be doing the similiar thing---.

Now compare it with something else---where pakistan doesnot have to fund the project---it acts in the samemanner again and again---the matter of sanctions from the united states----. In this case---the u s keeps giving pakistan the rope---and pakistan keeps on hanginging itsefl over and over---.

 

[evldth]

Hi,

Sometimes you get too funny---if I say something you wopuld say that I am starting to patronize you---but I won't.

So, why would pakistan keep on doing the same stuff that it did to get embargoed----why don't the pakistanis don't get their heads out of the darkness and start to think like people of the real world----why can't pakistanis think for the future wellness and wel-being of their country rather than kowtowing to every egyptian and yemeni/saudi fanatic.

From the relationship of the last 55 years, pakistan should have learnt how to play this game---you can't blame everyone else for your scr-ew ups every single time that you are given the oppurtunity to redeem yourself. Foll me once---shame on you---foll me twice---shame on me---being fooled for the last 55 years---I think that you people have some serious issues---when you end up in the same place every other ten years or so.

Your 'so called enemy ' has given you the best of the best air dominance systems---amraam 120C---so learn to appreciate and find ways not to be sanctioned. Thank you.

I guess there are two ways left in order to survives the sanctions
either develop JF-17 far better than F-16ns and don't depend on US anymore or
obey US without any hesitation if we need more US stuff and keep on depending US.
whichever U like most????

 

[MastanKhan]

I guess there are two ways left in order to survives the sanctions
either develop JF-17 far better than F-16ns and don't depend on US anymore or
obey US without any hesitation if we need more US stuff and keep on depending US.
whichever U like most????

Hi,

It is a not a matter of obeying the u s----it is a matter of understanding the current situation--understanding the consequences---understanding what you do now would bring out the results in far future---.

So what has happened is that since 2002----the time has moved at a warp speed----and pakistan has fooled itself into believing that things are going to move at pakistan's pace---things would be LOLLIGAGING as the pakistanis do.

You pakistanis refused to take charge of your destiny----you threw your identity and nationalism , honor and dignity in the trash bin and started kissing the behind of terrorists like OBL Zawaheri and co----you made these monsters your heros---.

You pakistanis don't know when to stop fighting the wars of other nations---. There comes a time in the life of any nation---where you have to let people of other nation do their own fighting and look for your own interest and the interest of the other nation.

Pak millitary should ahve blocked the borders and stopped the transition of pakistanis going into fighting in afg----any pakistani wanting to go across should have treated as enemy combatant---as an enemy of pakistans foreign affairs----.

Technically---and as a matter of engineering----the JF 17 is going to be a second class citizen compared to the F 16 BLK 52---quality has a value of its own---.

 

[evldth]

Hi,

It is a not a matter of obeying the u s----it is a matter of understanding the current situation--understanding the consequences---understanding what you do now would bring out the results in far future---.

So what has happened is that since 2002----the time has moved at a warp speed----and pakistan has fooled itself into believing that things are going to move at pakistan's pace---things would be LOLLIGAGING as the pakistanis do.

You pakistanis refused to take charge of your destiny----you threw your identity and nationalism , honor and dignity in the trash bin and started kissing the behind of terrorists like OBL Zawaheri and co----you made these monsters your heros---.
You pakistanis don't know when to stop fighting the wars of other nations---. There comes a time in the life of any nation---where you have to let people of other nation do their own fighting and look for your own interest and the interest of the other nation.

Pak millitary should ahve blocked the borders and stopped the transition of pakistanis going into fighting in afg----any pakistani wanting to go across should have treated as enemy combatant---as an enemy of pakistans foreign affairs----.

Technically---and as a matter of engineering----the JF 17 is going to be a second class citizen compared to the F 16 BLK 52---quality has a value of its own---.

I beg your pardon sir,
we never made these evil/terrorists our heros . These have been made heros by the western media and the CIA. CIA made them the heros. So they are their heros not the Muslim worlds. We hate them from the depth of our hearts cuz they are evils and the history showed whoever has been trained by the CIA proved to be the terrorists or evilz of the highest degrees. So now we need to go inside the CIA and find out what kind of evil pplz are sitting over there. They shold be sacked and put into jail for creating devilz and evilz within the society who are getting involved in the mass murder of the innocent pplz of this world. These evil terrorists have been continuosly funded by the CIA and the MI6 or Mosaad under their their thourough protectection beyond the sight/notice of the ordinary pplz/Muslims. we as a Muslim hate pplz who take the life of the innocent pplz nomatter whatever their race or religion is. We can never make evilz our heros no matter what. and it is our humble request to the western media please don't show these evilz as our heros otherwise we/Muslims might have to go into the international court against them/CIA to blackmail our peaceful religion Islam. Not even a single Muslim country declared them as their hero so howcome they have been posed as our heros. Instead every Muslim country declared them as evilz or terrorists.

Anyways JF17 is a good try by our country towards self reliance. With the passage of time hopefully we will see quality levels of technology in its new versions too.
I hope U don't mind if I said something that hurts ure feelings. Sorry for that.

 

[MastanKhan]

Evil death,

Please put some worth while effort please----why is it that with my pakistanis brethren--every time there is a discussion started---it has always got to go back to page 1------. Do you know how to run a relay race.

 

[SBD-3]

Hi,

India and pakistan---the roots being the same---have a great love affair with their projects----. As pakistan is short on funds---it dumps its projects as soon it doesnot find the right results----but india keeps on going---thinking that it would learn from its mistakes----which doesn't happen either.

If pak had the money---they would be doing the similiar thing---.

Now compare it with something else---where pakistan doesnot have to fund the project---it acts in the samemanner again and again---the matter of sanctions from the united states----. In this case---the u s keeps giving pakistan the rope---and pakistan keeps on hanginging itsefl over and over---.

Well sir, to me thats more like a philosophical argument. I would attribute it to the thinking prevailing in policymakers mindset rather than anything else. AFAIK of Indian militry complex, they try to indigionize everything, irrespective of its need, place and dynamics of future. For example, while DRDO was finally able to rollout Tejas after decades, meeting the objective of indiginization, it suddenly realized that the dynamics of the aviation changed till then and we see now focus being on MK II for meeting induction requirements. The Pakistan faced the same bottleneck at a time when development was virtually stalled by lack of progress on aviation package, then Pakistan took a gamble by decoupling airframe and it fortunately it paid off.Moreover, Pakistan made major structural changes in the airframe to enhance performance, which was due to changing dynamics as IAF started inducting SU-30s. PAF responded quickly rather than inducting MK-1 (Prototype 1-3) then going for Block-I. The similar happened with avionics package, as French refused to offer it to PAF, PAF again put faith in Chinese packge and it paid off pretty well. A similar thing happened with BVR platform, PAF had choice between more renowned denel and newbie in this arena i.e. CATIC which also paid off. Had these not paid off, PAF would have been under serious fire from people like you and me for wasting precious funds. But we should know one thing, at times a bet has to be made and thanks to Almighty, PAF's odds have been spot on til. DRDO learned it the hard way, with new chairman annoucing that the way forward was joint ventures not trying to reinvent the wheel, which DRDO has been doing till now (and looks like will keep doing for foreseeable future). There is a difference, investing with sense and faith and investing with hope. While most of my friends voice for indiginization of A to Z (investing with hope), I often challange this point, why so? for example w r t halos, why taking a risky venture and setting up whole manufacturing base for something we dont need in huge numbers and not to mention we can buy a better one off the shelf (investing with sense). This is what should be realized and voiced.

 

[PakShaheen79]

@MK,

Sir, how would you justify Pressler Amendment of 1985 when these "terrorists" were holy worrior for the Americans? PAF had a plan to acquire 111 F-16s in 4 instalments. First we got, for second we paid ... But never got our planes?...WHY... because we were developing nuclear program (or in reality Uncle SAM had no use of us anymore).

Then you statement Pakistan being failed in stopping Al-Qaeda from coming into its areas is not justified in lights of real events that took place.

In 2001, SAD (Special Activities Division) of CIA operatives had pin pointed OBL and gang in Tora Bora and requested an immedate operation request but what happened? Instead, this is what you can read on wikipeida:

In December 2001, SAD/SOG and the Army's Delta Force tracked down Osama bin Ladin in the rugged mountains near the Khyber Pass in Afghanistan.[101] Former CIA station chief Gary Berntsen as well as a subsequent Senate investigation claimed that the combined American special operations task force was largely outnumbered by al-Qaeda forces and that they were denied additional US troops by higher command.[102] The task force also requested munitions to block the avenues of egress of bin Laden, but that request was also denied.[103]

CAn you really give any explaination of this? But wait... let me take you little back more

In 1997, U.S. State Department's Robin Raphel told anti-Taliban leader Ahmad Shah Massoud to surrender to the Taliban. Massoud answered that as long as he controlled an area the size of his hat he would continue to defend it from the Taliban.[60] Robin Raphel eventually became a lobbyist and adviser at Cassidy & Associates.[82] The firm had a $1.2 million contract with the Musharraf military regime of Pakistan. At Cassidy & Associates she lobbied and advised Congress and the State Department for Pakistan on issues such as Afghan policy, Pakistan's relations with India, judicial independence and U.S. perceptions and congressional views of the Pakistan government.[82] In late 2009 Raphel was (again) appointed to the ****** region as deputy to Richard Holbrooke, the late US. Special Representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan, by the Obama administration. Raphel will be the main person overlooking the $1.5 billion U.S. aid package "for non-military purpose" to Pakistan.[82]

At one point in the war, in 1997, the Taliban were vulnerable and the road to the capital, Kabul, was wide open. Two top foreign policy officials in the Clinton administration flew to northern Afghanistan to convince - without success - the United Front not to take advantage of a opportunity to make crucial gains against the Taliban.[54] Before the United Front could strike, Assistant Secretary of State Rick Indefurth and American U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson flew to northern Afghanistan and tried to convince the leadership of the United Front that this was not the time for an offensive.[54] Instead, they insisted this was the time for a cease-fire and an arms embargo. At the same time Pakistanis began a "Berlin-like airlift to resupply and re-equip the Taliban", financed with Saudi money.[54]

Sir, do you have any idea, Why on earth, the US wanted so eagerly the success of Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan?

But that is not all... This is how OBL and gang ended here with their violent takfiri ideology which has nothing to do with Islam.

In late 1995, when Bin Laden was still in Sudan, the State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) learned that Sudanese officials were discussing with the Saudi government the possibility of expelling Bin Laden. CIA paramilitary officer Billy Waugh tracked down Bin Ladin in the Sudan and prepared an operation to apprehend him, but was denied authorization.[85] U.S. Ambassador Timothy Carney encouraged the Sudanese to pursue this course. The Saudis, however, did not want Bin Laden, giving as their reason their revocation of his citizenship. Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Laden over to the United States. The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Laden. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment outstanding.[86]

The 9/11 Commission Report further states:

In February 1996, Sudanese officials began approaching officials from the United States and other governments, asking what actions of theirs might ease foreign pressure. In secret meetings with Saudi officials, Sudan offered to expel Bin Laden to Saudi Arabia and asked the Saudis to pardon him. U.S. officials became aware of these secret discussions, certainly by March. Saudi officials apparently wanted Bin Laden expelled from Sudan. They had already revoked his citizenship, however, and would not tolerate his presence in their country. Also Bin Laden may have no longer felt safe in Sudan, where he had already escaped at least one assassination attempt that he believed to have been the work of the Egyptian or Saudi regimes, or both.

Why CIA was not allowed to take him out way before 9/11 and all this? Any ideas?

Do you still think, It was Pakistan who failed to stop Al-Qaeda entrance. Pakistan could not because despite the fact Americans were aware that Pakistan has no proper border with Afghanistan and there is no military deployed at that time on this border, let OBL escaped. WHY? They levelled the Tora Bora just to fool the world but by that time it was too late. this was all part of the Great Game. Block 52's are no favor to Pakistan. We paid for them. and still these are stripped down versions. a fact known to every one here.

Now coming back to JFT, it will certainly be not second class citizen in PAF for sure. Let time unfold itself. F-16 did not reached its current level overnight. It took it some 30 years before they inducted block 52. Give thunder half of that time and then we will compare them!!

investing in Thunders was the most sensible thing PAF did in its whole history and losing the opportunity to get M2K in 1990's was the biggest blunder. Had PAF acquired those plane in 1990's (even they were expensive) PAF would have been much relived lately, but that is past. Induction of Thunder will eventually make for that mistake.

 

[Mani2020]

Hi,

Excuses---excuses---excuses---my pakistani brethren are always full of excuse and blame everyone else for their problems----.

You could have gone ahead and executed the al qaeda coming in from tora bora that night---and stuck the heads of Bin laden, Zawaheri, and Azam on poles for the world to see----but they were your islamic brothers at that time and you proudly stated that your islamic brother would not destroy your house---but he wasno islamic brother----he was no one's brother---he waqs a terrorists---he burnt the houses of the pakistanis and killed them with a laugh and a smile on his face----.

While he scr-ewed his new young 17 years old bride----when thousands of muslims were dying---this monster was -f-cukin a new girl-----and this the hero of the islamic world----a new level of disgust---and the pakistani world was clueless.

Instead of playing these games that the pak millitary played---if they had done their jobs in time----life would have been much easier---.

Please---don't blame any one else for the misery----it is your thinking and then your acts---that have gotten you where you are---.

So what do you think Pakistan army has been doing since past 6-7 years? Do you think more than 10k soldiers we lost in war on terrorism were just playing volley ball, We have lost more than what whole NATO . If Pakistan army wouldn't have been sincere then how the hell they would have lost so many soldiers. Do you have any idea what you are talking about...oh wait...its typical yankee tone.....typical NRP's reaction.............So yankee media has brainwashed many ............Like Pakistani army is not sincere and the thousands of soldiers PA lost were just a con-incidence or they were just playing polo in FATA

If yankees would have been sincere why the hell they allowed the so called afghani terrorists to sneak into Pakistani borders, where the hell was your NATO when Pakistani army was doing operations against talibans and other terrorists and the NATO vacant the borders for them so they can in-filtrate and have a good dance party at night

And about OBL haha lol it makes me laugh how people have made themselves fool , a 50 year old person is alluded . Man yanks caught the OBL ....a most wanted terrorist.... who according to them terrorized the world for 10 years ... and what they did is caught him.... killed him and thrown him into sea...............without showing the world a dead OBL to prove their worth and to prove there decision of attacking afghanistan right .... lol but what they did was killed him and thrown him into sea.... a person who was so worthy for the yanks that they spent 10 years in afghan let there military die there and in meanwhile crippled their economy by doing so was destined to sea ..............funny isn't it

If there was OBL killed by NATO why it wasn't shown to the world? When they are so pumped up in revenge that to take their revenge from the muslim world they hanged Saddam on Eid day in front of the whole world , why not OBL which was far more dangerous to them .... lol some people try to be so over rational that they made mockery of themselves in mean-while , the the last excuse for them tilts their own opinion form one end to the other extreme end ....................but after few heres and theres they still come back to the original thing and that goes on and on throughout their life

 

[Mani2020]

Hi,

India and pakistan---the roots being the same---have a great love affair with their projects----. As pakistan is short on funds---it dumps its projects as soon it doesnot find the right results----but india keeps on going---thinking that it would learn from its mistakes----which doesn't happen either.

If pak had the money---they would be doing the similiar thing---.

Now compare it with something else---where pakistan doesnot have to fund the project---it acts in the samemanner again and again---the matter of sanctions from the united states----. In this case---the u s keeps giving pakistan the rope---and pakistan keeps on hanginging itsefl over and over---.

So whats your criteria of judgement here. As far as i know the behaviour of a nation can be judged from its past but wait............. never ever such thing happened in the past ............so a man comes up with a conclusion of his own based upon his perception just because he is old enough so he can perceive anything and everything regarding a nation and embed it anywhere around he wants ........just because he thinks so.................cheers

There was a man he used to love a girl who was poor .....there was his friend also who used to love another girl she was also poor.... the later got married .....the former was on the verge off .......in meanwhile the girl with whom the later man married got a lottery and became reach.... as soon as she ....she dumped her husband......when the former guy noticed it he also dumped her girlfriend just because of the fear that passed onto him from his friend that his gf will also dump him if she ever gets rich..... .... The girl cried .....they separated .... the guy went abroad ..... after 20 years he came back with a wife and two sons.............. one day he passed by her home and was amazed to see that the girl was still waiting for him with all the memories they shared ......but the difference was this time round she was sleeping deep down the grave in her lawn with a message for him written on the grave............ That man regretted ........... coz of associating one girls behaviour with the other ..................he lost what would have been most precious to him.........

 

[nomi007]

i hope that jft block 2 will be advance like j-10b

 

[Mani2020]

i hope that jft block 2 will be advance like j-10b

I think you are being too much optimist , basically both aircrafts are designed in a way that one fulfils the top tier and other the middle tier so the costs as well as operational capabilities remain somewhat within stated budget . There is no doubt the block-2 will be very advance but still somewhat less capable to J-10B as the later one will house many 5th gen technologies and will be 2-3 times more costly.

Its like a high-medium combo , i dont think the example will suit the situation but still to give you some idea it will be like Typhoon-F-16 combo

 

[sachin@india]

I want to ask a genuine question I think it could have answered many times but as a newbie I want to know whether china is also going to have JF-17 -2 in its inventory as people are saying it would be like typhoon - f 16 combo . Regards

 

[SQ8]

I want to ask a genuine question I think it could have answered many times but as a newbie I want to know whether china is also going to have JF-17 -2 in its inventory as people are saying it would be like typhoon - f 16 combo . Regards

Not confirmed.