JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates

[rockstarIN]

What i meant that even though IAF sights future to be the building block of its procurment startegy, it is not willing to let go the past. What i mean is that when it considers MKI to be a multirole platform, it is not willing to let go the now older Mig-29s,Mir-2000s, Jaguars. This leaves the IAF with 7 to 8 combat platforms, thats too scrambbled a fleet to operate and logically maintain.

Thats what I said, thats the mistake of last decade not to plan in advance. Had they planned well in 1985-99, we would have been in a better position today. If we plan well today, we will be in very good position in the next decade. And all these Jaguars & Mig-27s & Mig-21s will retire soon in this decade and there will be multi role platforms in IAF for future. And about Mig-29 upgrade, it is just a gap filler (cheap too) till the MMRCA comes. And about M2k, IAF loves that plane, though expensive upgrade. They have thousands of hours experience in Mig-29 & M2k, so why should we waste it. Apart from jets, training too is costly which is around Rs-110 million per pilot in 2002.

 

[untitled]

Thats what I said, thats the mistake of last decade not to plan in advance. Had they planned well in 1985-99, we would have been in a better position today.

From 1985 - 89 were looking froward to having 100 F-16s which we had been shown dreams of

 

[Luftwaffe]

What i meant that even though IAF sights future to be the building block of its procurment startegy, it is not willing to let go the past. What i mean is that when it considers MKI to be a multirole platform, it is not willing to let go the now older Mig-29s,Mir-2000s, Jaguars. This leaves the IAF with 7 to 8 combat platforms, thats too scrambbled a fleet to operate and logically maintain.

There is nothing wrong with mig-29s and Mirage 2000s all of them will be upgraded just as USAF is upgrading number of F-15s and F-16s. Jaguars are dangerously effective deep strike platform and many of them have been upgraded many of Jaguars and Mig-27s will be replaced with certain number of mrca/su-30 and the rest of Mig-21 along with lca and mrca, IAF has a program but is taking its fair amount of time for the modernization.

So lets get back at the thread.

 

[rockstarIN]

What i understand of him is that he meant to say IAF is trying to gulp everything that come in their way without realizing what their true needs are ,

That may be because they now have big budget than ever before that may have hypnotized them verging them to grab whatever they can . I don't want to sound offensive neither i am , just to clarify to IAF lovers that may take my post as an offence without being rational to it .

Look at the types of aircraft IAF is operating . You can go with the names m2k,mig-29,mki, mig21, LCA, jaguars, mig-27. Now these are 7 types many may argue that they are going to retire soon but the question is they are still in service as of yet and what will happen tomorrow is still a far fetched thing specially the way your guys are going with MRCA . Even the USAF with its all might is not operating that many fighter types (not including the b-2s, sr-71s etc, just about conventional fighters).

The question is not about the modernization , they can modernize even by keeping the types less Look at the Saudi, Turkish, Israeli air-forces they have less fighter types but still effective and modern airforces even when Saudia has more defence budget than india. The thing is IAF is not willing to retire the old aircrafts as of yet just to maintain that status quo of having one of the largest number of fighter aircrafts. They would have easily satisfied with quality . Why not to induct systematically by replacing 2-3 old types with 1 new type rather then keep on increasing the types. The modernization can also be done with less types while more numbers while protecting the squadron strength as well ,

To maintain 7 different types of aircrafts may be easy in peace time but wouldn't it be a nightmare during war time

Like I said earlier, if we operating more type of air crafts now, it is because of the lost last decade.

See the future, Mig-27s & Jaguars will be phased out in this decade will be replaced by MMRCAs.
Mig-21s will be replaced with LCAs
Mig-29 SMT + M2k will be there at least till the end of this decade (adventages - huge experience with it + IN operate Mig-29s & MMRCA mostly be RAFALE, same family from M2k)

Indian procurement is lengthy, but have its own advantages, we do not need MMRCA without AESA so not much problem in delaying it.

Finally, Heavy Class - Su-30 & 5th Gen.
Middle - MMRCA
Light weight - LCA.

Thats it for IAF in future.

 

[Zarvan]

Can some body provide the complete details of Level 2 Model I mean the missiles and radar and cockpit and other stuff

 

[Mani2020]

Can some body provide the complete details of Level 2 Model I mean the missiles and radar and cockpit and other stuff

Discussed earlier ,go through the previous pages you will find your answer

 

[evldth]

So that they would have been embargoed again by your dear yankees and PAF would have once again left on the mercy of enemies and then again people like you would have been yelling "PAF was insane, they should atleast have some sense ,they would have gone for french as they know yankees will once again back-stab , why to test someone time and time again,the people involved should be hanged" and all that lame stuff

I wonder how a person with all his senses can still prefer more yankee stuff specially after the recent chaos and tilt in the PAK-US relations specially after the statements like "US can use bombers on Pakistani soil" by some really high profile people

I am surprised by the fact that how many people just don't have in their nature to agree with someone and how they keep on twisting their own facts just to play safe as a critique

Very well said bro.
No more dependance on yankees shold be our top priority.
PAF is dealing everything excellently, no dependance on WEST anymore....Alhamdolillah.

 

[MastanKhan]

So that they would have been embargoed again by your dear yankees and PAF would have once again left on the mercy of enemies and then again people like you would have been yelling "PAF was insane, they should atleast have some sense ,they would have gone for french as they know yankees will once again back-stab , why to test someone time and time again,the people involved should be hanged" and all that lame stuff

I wonder how a person with all his senses can still prefer more yankee stuff specially after the recent chaos and tilt in the PAK-US relations specially after the statements like "US can use bombers on Pakistani soil" by some really high profile people

I am surprised by the fact that how many people just don't have in their nature to agree with someone and how they keep on twisting their own facts just to play safe as a critique

Hi,

Sometimes you get too funny---if I say something you wopuld say that I am starting to patronize you---but I won't.

So, why would pakistan keep on doing the same stuff that it did to get embargoed----why don't the pakistanis don't get their heads out of the darkness and start to think like people of the real world----why can't pakistanis think for the future wellness and wel-being of their country rather than kowtowing to every egyptian and yemeni/saudi fanatic.

From the relationship of the last 55 years, pakistan should have learnt how to play this game---you can't blame everyone else for your scr-ew ups every single time that you are given the oppurtunity to redeem yourself. Foll me once---shame on you---foll me twice---shame on me---being fooled for the last 55 years---I think that you people have some serious issues---when you end up in the same place every other ten years or so.

Your 'so called enemy ' has given you the best of the best air dominance systems---amraam 120C---so learn to appreciate and find ways not to be sanctioned. Thank you.

 

[Tempest II]

Hi,

Sometimes you get too funny---if I say something you wopuld say that I am starting to patronize you---but I won't.

So, why would pakistan keep on doing the same stuff that it did to get embargoed----why don't the pakistanis don't get their heads out of the darkness and start to think like people of the real world----why can't pakistanis think for the future wellness and wel-being of their country rather than kowtowing to every egyptian and yemeni/saudi fanatic.

From the relationship of the last 55 years, pakistan should have learnt how to play this game---you can't blame everyone else for your scr-ew ups every single time that you are given the oppurtunity to redeem yourself. Foll me once---shame on you---foll me twice---shame on me---being fooled for the last 55 years---I think that you people have some serious issues---when you end up in the same place every other ten years or so.

Your 'so called enemy ' has given you the best of the best air dominance systems---amraam 120C---so learn to appreciate and find ways not to be sanctioned. Thank you.

I am not sure about the USA giving PAF their best! … … I found the Wikileaks cable with the Embassy post disturbing when support for supplying the F-16s, the MLUs and weapons was that the PAF will remains inferior to IAF. How can you find comfort in a “friend” who finds assurances in that you will remain weaker than your mortal enemy? Those weapons were sold to PAF after the US had evaluated if they threatened Israel and India.

If I could, yes I would buy them, a handful, learn how they work and produce “Chinese copies”. In fact I expect the Block III JF-17 to be equivalent to the F-16 Block 50/52. PAF will make sure, slowly but surely that what they have and learn of the 50/52 will find its way into the Thunders. It could mean technicians using mobile phones … … or sending files via some PAF intranet, I am sure the PAF will find a way of getting 50/52 teachnology, where the feel they need it, into the Thunder.

When you say “find ways not to be sanctioned” … hmmm … I have appreciated more that globally politics is ruthless and it is all about national interests … … and unfortunately “national interest” are just mean “personal interests of nations”. You have seen how certain demands from the “UN” are just plain wrong and very much driven by a few key nations.

The world/UN is not a democracy (as much as there is a lot of talk and finger pointing about democracy or lack thereof in the UN meetings) and once you live in fear (i.e. conforming to avoid sanctions) you virtually are letting some man rule over your family.

 

[Mani2020]

Hi,

Sometimes you get too funny---if I say something you wopuld say that I am starting to patronize you---but I won't.

So, why would pakistan keep on doing the same stuff that it did to get embargoed----why don't the pakistanis don't get their heads out of the darkness and start to think like people of the real world----why can't pakistanis think for the future wellness and wel-being of their country rather than kowtowing to every egyptian and yemeni/saudi fanatic.

From the relationship of the last 55 years, pakistan should have learnt how to play this game---you can't blame everyone else for your scr-ew ups every single time that you are given the oppurtunity to redeem yourself. Foll me once---shame on you---foll me twice---shame on me---being fooled for the last 55 years---I think that you people have some serious issues---when you end up in the same place every other ten years or so.

Your 'so called enemy ' has given you the best of the best air dominance systems---amraam 120C---so learn to appreciate and find ways not to be sanctioned. Thank you.

And our "so called enemy" has also given us death tool, and our so called enemy also has given us drone strikes which had killed thousands of civilians, our "so called enemy" has also given us screwed up helis from third world countries when we wanted them the most , because of our so called enemy we have lost 90billion dollars and in return when they give us a billion dollars people like you start jumping and chanting "hurray yanks" but no one utters a single world when our economy cripples because of their policies and we lost billions. If they have given us 18 block 52s that was just because of their own benefits , that was just a good gesture by them so that Pakistan can remain committed to so called "war on terrorism"

so now you want to equate 40k lives lost+ 90billion lost + crippled economy = 18 block 52+ and amraam? i would any day prefer the former one.

We have learned and learned alot in past years about the yanks and thats why you will not find a single person living in Pakistan as a general public in favour of US , If some puppets on the top of the hierarchy follow yankees orders its because they are being paid by them not because they represent the whole nation

And btw which game are you talking about that Pakistan didn't learn to play!!! The only game i know the yanks have played in last hundred years is let the other countries join their ranks in killing innocents, allowing yanks to kill thousand of innocents on Pakistani soil and in exchange getting block 52s and amraams, is this the game you are talking about...........

We didn't learnt in the past because we didn't had any other options , because we had enemy on our eastern borders we had to keep up with the logistics game to defend ourselves and US was the only source for us at that time so for that we did some mistakes but now when we are diverting ourselves away from them and found other options then people like you are jumping into it.

Have you ever had a glimpse of idea what you want? you are sitting on a see saw , in one moment you are on one side and the next moment you are on opposite side

I still prefer a single jf-17 over 10 f-16s that we buy from yankees , we are still dependent on them in few regards because we don't have alternatives but as soon as we will find them it will be bye bye to yanks

 

[Storm Force]

Hasnain

PAF currently operates

F7 , MIRAGE 3/5 ,, A5 fantan, F16 & Thunder & plans to get FC20 ........... I MAKE THAT 6 TYPES

Your argument of IAF having no planning does not make sense

BOTH I ans several other members have just explainmed IAF is going thru a $50 billion modernisation programme lasting 15 years

4 combat types will remain SU30MKI .. MMRCA.. LCA MK1/2 & FGFA

MIG29, MIRAGE2000, JAGUAR are stop gap fillers only

likewise

despite THUNDERS or indeed FC20 coming dont expect F7 & MIRAGES to disapperar overnite

THESE THINGS take time & serious money something not all PDF posters appericate.

 

[Mani2020]

Hasnain

PAF currently operates

F7 , MIRAGE 3/5 ,, A5 fantan, F16 & Thunder & plans to get FC20 ........... I MAKE THAT 6 TYPES

Your argument of IAF having no planning does not make sense

BOTH I ans several other members have just explainmed IAF is going thru a $50 billion modernisation programme lasting 15 years

4 combat types will remain SU30MKI .. MMRCA.. LCA MK1/2 & FGFA

MIG29, MIRAGE2000, JAGUAR are stop gap fillers only

likewise

despite THUNDERS or indeed FC20 coming dont expect F7 & MIRAGES to disapperar overnite

THESE THINGS take time & serious money something not all PDF posters appericate.

lol tell me one thing, what was the last time when you think you act as a rational? A-5's are long gone and FC-20 is still not inducted then how can you count them both? and don't forget jf-17 has replaced A-5 and is now replacing mirages infact many has been replaced while FC-20 will immediately replace older F-7s making it 3-4 types for PAF to operate

You are counting all PAF aircrafts including the one which are long retired and the ones which are still to come but for IAF you are just counting what will be after 8 years and not the current inventory , how bias can some one go . good keep it up

 

[baqai]

A5's have phased out and replaced by JF-17's

 

[SBD-3]

I am not sure about the USA giving PAF their best! … … I found the Wikileaks cable with the Embassy post disturbing when support for supplying the F-16s, the MLUs and weapons was that the PAF will remains inferior to IAF. How can you find comfort in a “friend” who finds assurances in that you will remain weaker than your mortal enemy? Those weapons were sold to PAF after the US had evaluated if they threatened Israel and India.

If I could, yes I would buy them, a handful, learn how they work and produce “Chinese copies”. In fact I expect the Block III JF-17 to be equivalent to the F-16 Block 50/52. PAF will make sure, slowly but surely that what they have and learn of the 50/52 will find its way into the Thunders. It could mean technicians using mobile phones … … or sending files via some PAF intranet, I am sure the PAF will find a way of getting 50/52 teachnology, where the feel they need it, into the Thunder.

When you say “find ways not to be sanctioned” … hmmm … I have appreciated more that globally politics is ruthless and it is all about national interests … … and unfortunately “national interest” are just mean “personal interests of nations”. You have seen how certain demands from the “UN” are just plain wrong and very much driven by a few key nations.

The world/UN is not a democracy (as much as there is a lot of talk and finger pointing about democracy or lack thereof in the UN meetings) and once you live in fear (i.e. conforming to avoid sanctions) you virtually are letting some man rule over your family.

Tempest, Just one more thing i would like to point out is that already a lot of stuff speculated for JFT II would be enough to keep it league apart from Block 52s. If i may correctly recall a PAF's professional's interview. He said that in years to come, Block 52 will not be most advanced aircraft in PAF's inventory. Most of the people at that time speculated that J-10B will be ahead of Block 52, but apparently it seems like PAF has decided to go full throttle ahead with massive all out upgrade of fleet (also pointed by PShamim shaib). Moreover, it was confirmed that there will be no JFT III which was eyed as Block 60 equivalent. Now it may be speculated that JFT II will be bechmarked as JFT III and all that AESA,IRST, Avionics and EW/ECM will be at least at par or in some case be superior to Block 52, but for that what i am looking for is that how much structural modification is made for this. Apparently the expected choice of RD-33MK points to this direction, to balance the expected weight addition by providing addition thrust (A case with Block 60s) rather than enhancing TWR, means that there wont be any significant structural modification.

 

[SBD-3]

lol tell me one thing, what was the last time when you think you act as a rational? A-5's are long gone and FC-20 is still not inducted then how can you count them both? and don't forget jf-17 has replaced A-5 and is now replacing mirages infact many has been replaced while FC-20 will immediately replace older F-7s making it 3-4 types for PAF to operate

You are counting all PAF aircrafts including the one which are long retired and the ones which are still to come but for IAF you are just counting what will be after 8 years and not the current inventory , how bias can some one go . good keep it up

I dont mind him......he often makes such "kalabazian"...btw one more thing you could have added....tejas MK 1 would only enter very limited service as the main operational platform is expected to be MK 2 making it the only aircraft whose second version would be operationalized.