JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[TsAr]

5th gen walay ghareeb scottish uncle

I wanted the gentleman who quoted this to answer it. I don't know why we think that if an ex Chief said something that is full and final and subsequent chief's have no authority to change them. What Sohail Aman or any other ex-chief said does is history. Each chief has 3 years and he comes in with his own ideas and vision.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I completely disagree with that and would like to see backed up by a testimony of a PAF officer. Gwalior is very much a target in the offensive list for an air campaign. The M2K was pursued for this purpose as well.

you might recall that whenever Benazir's PPP won the elections then the newspapers started carrying the news of the French Nuclear reactor and the Mirage 1000 purchase which would vanish as soon as Nawaz would form the next government and PPP will resume the purchase talks in its next government.
this all ended by end of 90s and early 2000s and we never heard of anything of French jets.

 

[SQ8]

you might recall that whenever Benazir's PPP won the elections then the newspapers started carrying the news of the French Nuclear reactor and the Mirage 1000 purchase which would vanish as soon as Nawaz would form the next government and PPP will resume the purchase talks in its next government.
this all ended by end of 90s and early 2000s and we never heard of anything of French jets.

Thats 10% and company wanting to close their original deal but the premise that the J-10 adds nothing or the block-III can do the same isn’t being backed by technical figures more than very very high level opinions and nothing more.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thats 10% and company wanting to close their original deal but the premise that the J-10 adds nothing or the block-III can do the same isn’t being backed by technical figures more than very very high level opinions and nothing more.

having next to no Jet Aviation understanding I am mostly a quiet observer and reader (only) of this section. but I am aware that size does matter (JF-17 vs J10).

the hint is in the size (size ,engine, endurance, payload) difference between the two jets. thinking both are the same seems illogical to me.

 

[Blacklight]

having next to no Jet Aviation understanding I am mostly a quiet observer and reader (only) of this section. but I am aware that size does matter (JF-17 vs J10).

the hint is in the size (size ,engine, endurance, payload) difference between the two jets. thinking both are the same seems illogical to me.

do add diff in t/r modules as well.

 

[Trango Towers]

5th gen walay ghareeb scottish uncle

Do u feel better. That's rather rude. Remember the chai wala serving the country is better than a waffler.

 

[denel]

So J-10 will cost twice as much and offer just a marginal improvement over the Thunder? Sounds like complete misappropriation of funds.
PAF has never made any efforts to get a deep strike fighter in it's history. Everyone knows it will primarily be fighting IAF in its own airspace and strikes against India will be limited to airbases and targets near the border and in support of ground troops. "Deep strike" inside India is a fantasy and a fools errand given their ADGE.
Hitting targets a few hundred km inside India has always been possible even with A-5s and Mirages and now with extended ranged weapons already in service and better ones in the horizon the range is not a big deal.
Infact I would argue that spend those billions in making better munitions for the Thunder instead of buying a new platform with the same weapons kit that you already have access to.

I would counter your proposal. Spend that money further on R&D - with further improvements Blks 4-5 and keep this line running with more potential customers. This is a young bird which has just found its flight; it needs to taste its first blood. FUrther, get more of the work onboard to PAC; the core work remains with China and you are at their mercy. If this opportunity is squandered, this will be another lost decade of being at a mercy of another power. Always be prepared to become independent power.

 

[MastanKhan]

China was asked to provide J-10 with Chinese engine in Musharraf era. They failed spectacularly at making a reliable engine. Only now they have resolved that issue and still nobody knows if they can produce enough own design engines for export or just providing for own air force.
That was the main hurdle why PAF didn't buy J-10.

The second problem was financial contribution towards R&D.

Initially Pakistan agreed for paying the Chinese manufacturer a certain percentage of R&D to make PAF specific changes. Then came "Democracy" and Asif Zardari gobbled up all those funds .
When that happened and PAF made no contribution, the Chinese had no reason to make any PAF specific changes, and lacked any other export customer and Chinese government didn't give export clearance.
That export clearance was only issued in 2019.

Hi,

Only if you could comprehend the level of difficulty in manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine from SCRATCH, you would have held onto your comments.

 

[ARMalik]

People keep quoting J-10s Max loadout somehow as if it's anything special. But when compared to any of the euro canards, which would be it's contemporary fighters, it shows how subpar it really is in the strike role.
Aside from some hard points useful for only carry small gravity/dumb bombs, what advantage does it actually offer over the Thunder when loaded out for strike missions. Let's not forget you can have two Thunders for the price of one J-10

J-10, JF-17 --- Two different classes of Aircraft having their own Pros and Cons. It's not about the price sometimes, its about the potential outcome.

 

[Thorough Pro]

in 1980's (83/84) we got block 15's, there was no block C/D at that time

The PAF's been trying since at least the 1970s. We almost got the 110 A-7 Corsair IIs from the U.S., but the latter pulled it due to our nuclear program (because they were worried, perhaps rightly, that we'd use it for the nuclear attack role). In the 1980s, the PAF was well aware of the F-16C/D and, at some level, imagined acquiring 50 or so (atop of the 110 F-16A/Bs) for the strike and maritime roles.

Finally, the ASR of AZM clearly says, 'twin-engine'. However, everyone under the sun knows that the PAF fulfilling its vision of 100+ strike-capable and maritime aircraft would greatly alter the security environment in South Asia. Heck, I'd say beyond South Asia and into the Gulf, Central Asia, and Northeast Africa (long-range fighter plus AAR plus a Ra'ad-II-type ALCM). Pakistan may be the bumbling fool on world affairs, but the world knows that individual Pakistanis are truly capable. However unlikely, Pakistan could change from being the Ralph Wiggum of world affairs to the Bart Simpson. You don't want to risk that... The line between "servant of American/Chinese interests" and "Mercenary State" is very thin, but the latter is a very different and signficantly more vicious beast.

 

[luciferdd]

JF-17 and j-10C are not the same LV at WVR,J-10Cs have a much higher thrust weight ratio then JF-17s.JF-17B3 can't have competive to Rafale at WVR....that's the reason why PAF still order some J-10C when they have JF-17B3=>they need a fighter to count against the Rafale at both BVR and WVR.

 

[SQ8]

in 1980's (83/84) we got block 15's, there was no block C/D at that time

FIrst block 25(official C/D) was flown in 1984 a year after the first PAF F-16s were delivered. By 1987 the PAF was focused on procuring the Block-32

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

in 1980's (83/84) we got block 15's, there was no block C/D at that time

I wasn't talking about the Peace Gate-I/II F-16s.

I was talking about the PAF's F-16 plans after Peace Gate IV.

The US started marketing the F-16C/D Block-30/32 to countries (including Pakistan) in the mid-1980s. The PAF started looking at it in 1987-1988.

Though it ultimately ordered the F-16A/B Block-15OCU under Peace Gate III/IV, AHQ did actually chalk up plans to acquire an F-16C/D variant through the 1990s. In fact, there's an old Flight International article on this forum somewhere with ACM Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi who said that the F-16 plan was for 110 F-16A/Bs plus an option for 50 more. The "50 more" were actually supposed to be C/Ds as that was the only variant in production in the 1990s.

Remember, the PAF canned the Sabre II in the late 1980s. It did so because, like so many other air forces in the world, going all-in on just the F-16s was the most optimal and cost-effective move. If not for Pressler, the PAF would've probably had one of the world's largest F-16 fleets like Egypt, Turkey, and South Korea.

It's worth noting that the PAF even went as far as footing the bill for original integration projects -- like ATLIS-II -- because it basically expected to fly mostly F-16s. It even tried to pick up the Penguin AShM, but for some reason, the project fell through at the time.

BTW this is the article I'm referring to:

With the embargoed fighters now destined for New Zealand, the Pakistan air force must soldier on with the 32 Block 15 F-16A/Bs surviving from an 1983 order. This is a far cry from the force of 110 F-16s it had planned to field by the turn of the century, with an option to acquire another 50.​

​

https://www.flightglobal.com/improvise-and-modernise/25188.article​

 

[ssethii]

I would counter your proposal. Spend that money further on R&D - with further improvements Blks 4-5 and keep this line running with more potential customers. This is a young bird which has just found its flight; it needs to taste its first blood. FUrther, get more of the work onboard to PAC; the core work remains with China and you are at their mercy. If this opportunity is squandered, this will be another lost decade of being at a mercy of another power. Always be prepared to become independent power.

PAC has absorbed most of the technology to build Jf-17 till block 2 barring engine but yeah most of the R&D is being done in CATIC for newer alteration(s).

 

[Aesterix]

I wasn't talking about the Peace Gate-I/II F-16s.

I was talking about the PAF's F-16 plans after Peace Gate IV.

The US started marketing the F-16C/D Block-30/32 to countries (including Pakistan) in the mid-1980s. The PAF started looking at it in 1987-1988.

Though it ultimately ordered the F-16A/B Block-15OCU under Peace Gate III/IV, AHQ did actually chalk up plans to acquire an F-16C/D variant through the 1990s. In fact, there's an old Flight International article on this forum somewhere with ACM Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi who said that the F-16 plan was for 110 F-16A/Bs plus an option for 50 more. The "50 more" were actually supposed to be C/Ds as that was the only variant in production in the 1990s.

Remember, the PAF canned the Sabre II in the late 1980s. It did so because, like so many other air forces in the world, going all-in on just the F-16s was the most optimal and cost-effective move. If not for Pressler, the PAF would've probably had one of the world's largest F-16 fleets like Egypt, Turkey, and South Korea.

It's worth noting that the PAF even went as far as footing the bill for original integration projects -- like ATLIS-II -- because it basically expected to fly mostly F-16s. It even tried to pick up the Penguin AShM, but for some reason, the project fell through at the time.

BTW this is the article I'm referring to:

With the embargoed fighters now destined for New Zealand, the Pakistan air force must soldier on with the 32 Block 15 F-16A/Bs surviving from an 1983 order. This is a far cry from the force of 110 F-16s it had planned to field by the turn of the century, with an option to acquire another 50.​

​

https://www.flightglobal.com/improvise-and-modernise/25188.article​

Imreeka's carrot and stick tactics with F-16 has hurt PAF more than anything. PAF is still drooling on F-16 despite knowing they can't get them.