JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[PakFactor]

View attachment 779191
from weibo @四川地产界高层

Please tell me this is real and not a Photoshop.

 

[FuturePAF]

It used to have F-16s, now from what I've seen it mostly has Mirages, F-7 and some C-130s and JF-17. The airshow JF-17 was also parked at Masroor last I checked. View attachment 779111

Any indication once the Block 3 goes into mass production, this air show bird will return to normal service and a block 3 will take its place?

Lighter airframe and more powerful engine. A better marketing tool then continuing to use a Block II, when we are trying to advertise the Block 3 to Malaysia, Azerbaijan, Egypt and Iraq.

 

[Crimson Blue]

Malaysia already said they have reservation about Russian engines. RD-93MA is the modified RD-33.

Smoky Bandit: The Malaysian Air Force Retires All Russian Aircraft

On June 22, the Malaysian Ministry of Defense released a tender released for Lead-in Fighter/Trainer Aircraft; within the tender, the Malaysian air force intends to purchase a platform that combine…

www.globaldefensecorp.com

There is a reason as to why Mig-29/RD-33 were more expensive for Malaysia to operate as compared to F-404 engine.

Malaysia bough these jets in smaller number and they did not have in house capability to service these jets/engines. So Russian engines had to be serviced more frequently and sending engines to Russia gets expensive real quick.

RD-93 is working out for JF-17 since Pakistan can service it in house, as frequently as she wants.

What Malaysia really needs is, a favorable service contract for whatever jet she wants to acquire.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Denel has modified A-Darter several times for foreign customers. Brazil bought A-darter from South Africa. Brazilian A-darter is different then ordinary export version. Brazilian A-darter has a data link to Raven ES05 radar.

PL-10 is identical to 1980s Aspide. China initially licensed produced as Aspide Mk.1 then rename to PL-10 after 1989. Whatever Chinese media says about PL-10 like off-boresight capability, etc I would take it as partial truth. Ultimately, PL-10 is 1970s technology. Here is another truth Rocketsan manufactured rocket motors of Apside MK.1 missiles.

Denel A-darter is a modern technology supported by Leonardo and Saab Group. Denel can modify data link to matching X-band KLJ-7A.

None of the garbage you spewed has any resemblance to reality, clown. Cope harder.

Are you that clown @denel's alt?

 

[Yujiro]

This is a very well balanced write up. And yes, I agree with you 100%. It's great that an air force is designing a jet for it's operational needs and per the latest industry specs and this one venture would be cost effective too, as it's being designed directly by the professionals who'd use it. However, there is no way this can create an "industry" beyond this one jet's future blocks or overtime, a similar jet with advanced features. If the goal is to increase throughput in economy through the military industrial complex, then, regular companies need to get involved. It seems as in Pakistan's case, all ventures that can otherwise create an open market and expand the economy, are narrowed down to military running them and thus, killing any options of a local industry to be born out of these ventures.

India has learned from the US about it. The HAL Tejas, the AMCA and the manufacturing of SU platforms, all have over 5000 civilian companies involved. Overtime, this will build an industrial base over the next 10-15 years like nothing else. There is no other country who has 5000 companies involved in direct advance jet design, build and manufacturing. This is how you grow your local economy base. These 5000 companies will overtime create hundreds or thousands of jobs. if the IAF or IAF was to limit these projects so ONLY they can build these, you won't have a future $ 100 billion (or more) worth of economy that would be created by these 5000 defense contractors in the future.

Maybe these 5000 companies is the reason why Tejas has not matured into a platform and is failed project. Too many cooks in the kitchen. India production rate is terrible. Sukhois are cheaper to fly from russia then make in india under license. AM shahid latif said in his interviews how the indians were stunned at the efficiency of PAF and that everything was done under one roof.

At most, PAF needs marketing minds. Jf17 is only known for playing a role in 27th feb incident and DCS combat sim.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

This is a very well balanced write up. And yes, I agree with you 100%. It's great that an air force is designing a jet for it's operational needs and per the latest industry specs and this one venture would be cost effective too, as it's being designed directly by the professionals who'd use it. However, there is no way this can create an "industry" beyond this one jet's future blocks or overtime, a similar jet with advanced features. If the goal is to increase throughput in economy through the military industrial complex, then, regular companies need to get involved. It seems as in Pakistan's case, all ventures that can otherwise create an open market and expand the economy, are narrowed down to military running them and thus, killing any options of a local industry to be born out of these ventures.

India has learned from the US about it. The HAL Tejas, the AMCA and the manufacturing of SU platforms, all have over 5000 civilian companies involved. Overtime, this will build an industrial base over the next 10-15 years like nothing else. There is no other country who has 5000 companies involved in direct advance jet design, build and manufacturing. This is how you grow your local economy base. These 5000 companies will overtime create hundreds or thousands of jobs. if the IAF or IAF was to limit these projects so ONLY they can build these, you won't have a future $ 100 billion (or more) worth of economy that would be created by these 5000 defense contractors in the future.

The thing with pakistan civilians is they are haram khors (cheaters lazy incompetant) who are only good at making tiktok videos... in past 60 years pakistan civilian sector has not produced a single technological company that is worth over a billion dollars. How do you expect then to handle airplanes? Let me also give you another example. I went to a hobby shop and had a conversation with the owner who informed me that rc plane company once invested in pakistan to produced rc planes and within months the company had to close the plant because the local workers were producing substandard planes. Even though pakistanis are pretty good at wood working which pretty much requires eyeballing..
The military has no trust in civilian companies to produced anything good for the military.
Usa is a different story. Heck if you have the money u can start ur own company and start producing fighter jets.

 

[Keysersoze]

Maybe these 5000 companies is the reason why Tejas has not matured into a platform and is failed project. Too many cooks in the kitchen. India production rate is terrible. Sukhois are cheaper to fly from russia then make in india under license. AM shahid latif said in his interviews how the indians were stunned at the efficiency of PAF and that everything was done under one roof.

At most, PAF needs marketing minds. Jf17 is only known for playing a role in 27th feb incident and DCS combat sim.

https://warisboring.com/this-is-the-ultimate-mig-21/ This from 2014

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ch...s-jets-avoids-america-s-mistakes-8b326431be30 2015

https://warisboring.com/china-and-pakistans-twin-seat-budget-fighter-is-impressive/ and 2017

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-jf-17-became-backbone-pakistans-air-force-137332 and 2020

All of these articles are from Western sources and they praise the JF17 for what it is. Combine this with the access they gave to Alan Warnes and you have good marketing. the best marketing has always been showing your product in action. (case in point the Exocet and the sinking of HMS Sheffield)

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is a very well balanced write up. And yes, I agree with you 100%. It's great that an air force is designing a jet for it's operational needs and per the latest industry specs and this one venture would be cost effective too, as it's being designed directly by the professionals who'd use it. However, there is no way this can create an "industry" beyond this one jet's future blocks or overtime, a similar jet with advanced features. If the goal is to increase throughput in economy through the military industrial complex, then, regular companies need to get involved. It seems as in Pakistan's case, all ventures that can otherwise create an open market and expand the economy, are narrowed down to military running them and thus, killing any options of a local industry to be born out of these ventures.

India has learned from the US about it. The HAL Tejas, the AMCA and the manufacturing of SU platforms, all have over 5000 civilian companies involved. Overtime, this will build an industrial base over the next 10-15 years like nothing else. There is no other country who has 5000 companies involved in direct advance jet design, build and manufacturing. This is how you grow your local economy base. These 5000 companies will overtime create hundreds or thousands of jobs. if the IAF or IAF was to limit these projects so ONLY they can build these, you won't have a future $ 100 billion (or more) worth of economy that would be created by these 5000 defense contractors in the future.

Only problem is even 5K Indian companies, supported by the entire known world, have been failing for the last 40 years to take Tejas to a respectable state! The morning shows the day…..

In Pak’s case it’s like too many cooks spoil the broth! It’s always like “now or never”, “one or none” etc…..

 

[GumNaam]

I didn't want to post this here. There is a limit of being Chinese fanboy.

Why did Chinese pilot ran from Taiwanese AIM-9X sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM? Why didn't Pakistan use JF-17 Block I against Su-30MKI? Why Pakistan still rely on American weapons than Chinese?

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China knows limits of copying foreign weapons, investing in R&D and JVs: US report

The report noted Russia may remain China's sole source of dual-use technology

www.theweek.in

Do you need more references?

uhm... JF17s were in iiok airspace after bombing them and were looking for a fight...if all the indian air crafts in the area for dysentery then that's not our problem. We were looking for a fight but after loosing 2 jets and a chopper, they had enough.

and please don't waste bandwidth by posting links to sites that are either indian or known to neocon mouth pieces.

 

[arjunk]

Why didn't Pakistan use JF-17 Block I against Su-30MKI?

JF-17 Block I is a replacement for ancient F-7s and Mirages, (and to deal with F-16 sanctions) not meant to fight IAF's backbone, the top of the line "mini awacs raptor of the east". JF-17s however did lock on to Indian Mirage-2000s multiple times, and said Mirages ran away from the battlefield claiming they had a radar problem (the constant RWR beeping was enough to scare them off).

Any indication once the Block 3 goes into mass production, this air show bird will return to normal service and a block 3 will take its place?

Don't know.

 

[iLION12345_1]

View attachment 779191
from weibo @四川地产界高层

Surprised nobody is talking about this more, this is big.

 

[jedijedi]

I asked a sq leadr frnd who is an engineer and works on JF17. He told me what the pipe is for but i am not going to share it here . Let it run for 100 more pages.

The Sq Ldr is falling prey to the desire to win social brownie points if he's letting you in on a project secret. If you lot are sure its not sensitive info, then spill it out already.

India will be sanctioned for buying S-400 from Russia.

Germany, Italy, France and UK supply arms to all Southeast Asian countries. Pakistan is a democratic country. Pakistan Army is not going to walk into Prime Minister's office and take power. Pakistan is in a complex geopolitical tug of war. Its highly unlikely that Pakistan will be sanctioned for buy Mi-35 helicopter and RD-93MA engine for Russia.

- Sanctioning India part is still up in the air. US isn't stupid enough to invoke CAATSA if it stands to lose more than gain from antagonizing India. India is a huge market and US already has extensive defense ties with Indian defense industry. This doesn't guarantee India protection from CAATSA but it does go a long way along that road.
- Not sure if you were serious or it was sarcasm when you said "Pakistan is a democratic country. Pakistan Army is not going to walk into Prime Minister's office and take power", i'm inclined towards the latter.

Half-assed compensation. The US's WoT has cost us $150 billion, 80,000 lives, and many unquantifiable losses.

It's been documented that Pakistan lost over $120 Billion due to the war on terror. So $35 Billion - $120 Billion = -$85Billion in loss.

- Who has documented this other than some spokesperson from the foreign ministry or another internal source. Is there a third party (ideal if neutral) study on this that I could read. I'd like to see where those numbers came from, both $120 billion and $150 billion.
- What if the coalition shelved $150 billion, heck $250 billion on Pakistan? Who believes the defense czars, the bickering divided self centered power hungry polity, us complacent and self hyping people would've made Pakistan a modern democratic marvel, an oasis in the Muslim world.

The burden to our economy for being a US ally was 120 Billion $, the human loss is not calculatable.

Pakistan's economic woes are more due to education or lack thereof, refusal to move into the industrial age, bad economic policies and our collective ethos than any external factor. We rarely if ever have had CAD in the negative and the one such occasion was deep in the WoT alliance in 2000s when we were getting ample funding.
You give a poor man a fish and you feed him for a day. You teach him to fish and you give him an occupation that will feed him for a lifetime. We as a nation (a large majority) don't want to fish, we want fish fed to us, daily, all our lives leaving us just to continue to complain on the odd day life throws us daal rather than fish! Include me in this aforementioned majority, and no its not meant for the hard working and thinking minority.

This is not even enough to pay for the infrastruture damage from transits..pakistan was royally screwee because alot of money went into private pockets of judges generals and politicans

I can easily imagine why generals are blamed, politicians to a lesser degree but judges pocketing from CSF inflows?

Everything has some strings attached. Where JF sits, RD is pretty much perfect. Plenty of Mig 29s around with interchangeable parts for JF. Even if spares become short, plenty of Mig 29s have similar engines, just like Pakistan bought used Mirages as donor aircrafts for parts.

Similar engines doesn't mean parts are interchangeable or at least to a notable or worthwhile degree.

The thing with pakistan civilians is they are haram khors (cheaters lazy incompetant) who are only good at making tiktok videos... in past 60 years pakistan civilian sector has not produced a single technological company that is worth over a billion dollars. How do you expect then to handle airplanes? Let me also give you another example. I went to a hobby shop and had a conversation with the owner who informed me that rc plane company once invested in pakistan to produced rc planes and within months the company had to close the plant because the local workers were producing substandard planes. Even though pakistanis are pretty good at wood working which pretty much requires eyeballing..
The military has no trust in civilian companies to produced anything good for the military.
Usa is a different story. Heck if you have the money u can start ur own company and start producing fighter jets.

I didn't want to post this here. There is a limit of being Chinese fanboy.

Why did Chinese pilot ran from Taiwanese AIM-9X sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM? Why didn't Pakistan use JF-17 Block I against Su-30MKI? Why Pakistan still rely on American weapons than Chinese?

China's Military Built with Cloned Weapons - USNI News

Chinese military clones are built on technology that is largely borrowed or stolen from Russia or the West.

news.usni.org

Five weapons that China stole or copied

Beijing [China], April 28 (ANI): China has long supplemented legitimate transfers and domestic innovation with industrial espionage helping to compete with the U.S. or the U.S.S.R. in the production of advanced military technology.

www.aninews.in

6 Chinese weapons that are direct rip-offs of American ones

Chinese weapons have surged in capability and size in the recent decades, but that's come from copying the US. Check out these examples.

www.wearethemighty.com

Five Chinese Weapons Copied (or Stolen) From Russia and America

Beijing's military might is growing, with some unintended help.

nationalinterest.org

Weapons China Copied From Russia, Czech Republic, Germany, France, Italy, Israel and America

Chinese government-controlled Global Times, CGTV and CCTV continuously keep telling the world about China’s fast-emerging aircraft industry. It is also to raise the morale of its own people and to …

www.globaldefensecorp.com

China knows limits of copying foreign weapons, investing in R&D and JVs: US report

The report noted Russia may remain China's sole source of dual-use technology

www.theweek.in

Do you need more references?

Maybe these 5000 companies is the reason why Tejas has not matured into a platform and is failed project. Too many cooks in the kitchen. India production rate is terrible. Sukhois are cheaper to fly from russia then make in india under license. AM shahid latif said in his interviews how the indians were stunned at the efficiency of PAF and that everything was done under one roof.

At most, PAF needs marketing minds. Jf17 is only known for playing a role in 27th feb incident and DCS combat sim.

Only problem is even 5K Indian companies, supported by the entire known world, have been failing for the last 40 years to take Tejas to a respectable state! The morning shows the day…..

In Pak’s case it’s like too many cooks spoil the broth! It’s always like “now or never”, “one or none” etc…..

I will quote myself from another post and modify it a bit.

1- Failure (even if Tejas is one) leads to success. Read on.
2- Curious what you mean by PAF just needs marketing minds. It already has its own PR, it could seek help from ISPR is all. The kind of protectionist setup our forces have built, they hardly ever let any private player come in for defense apparatus is a 'holy cow'. Marketing is result oriented in the private field and not in the forces which use it mostly for national morale and for staying relevant and protected from internal eyebrows. It seems like a deadlock.
3- It pains me that our keyboard warriors (often highly educated) dismiss and mock India. Sometimes industries struggle for decades before they cross a threshold, a tipping point. India is almost on that tipping point while we're languishing far far behind. Before critical mass, industries are often appear zero sum games and after the tipping point 1+1=11 in most cases.

- India is fast finding local sources for complex aviation parts like extremely critical actuators that go on a jet fighter, the composites, the semiconductor tech involved among other things. They have local composite fuselage manufacturing techniques already understood , local weapons suite and local radar in process. India needs to refine and reimage Tejas and they are doing that already with TEDBF and Tejas Mk2.
- India is already building fuselages of latest Apache AH-64 and C130s manufacture, the ancient version of latter, we are struggling to keep flying.
- India is trying its hand at building aircraft carriers and SSBNs. Do you even remotely comprehend the industrial might required to undertake such projects. They will struggle, they will stumble but they'll end up better than us for they are building a massive industrial base and encouraging private players to partake in defense which will inevitably lead to cutthroat competition, fast development and most importantly tangible results.
- Indian private manufacturers are fast gaining traction inside their Army vehicle and weapon manufacturing, we have been fed the entire "self reliance, Indigenous capability, transfer of technology" thing since Agusta 90B, Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar tanks, and Naval boat manufacture. However, did we manufacture a single Agusta 90B after we got the entire 'technology transfer'. We continue to purchase naval ships from Turkey, China and Romania. For Army, we've finally signed off on Chinese VT4 tanks. Things are unravelling and unravelling fast, claims of our powers are all falling in front of our eyes and we'd be our worst enemies to still ignore these signs.

Our keyboard warrior skills won't help us win a war with India unless we at least have this consensus that we need to at least not fight over silly matters of seeing India as a serious threat or just brush it off."

uhm... JF17s were in iiok airspace after bombing them and were looking for a fight...if all the indian air crafts in the area for dysentery then that's not our problem. We were looking for a fight but after loosing 2 jets and a chopper, they had enough.

What do you base this information on, all conjecture or do you have any circumstantial evidence to back this, evidence that makes sense to most? PAF jets per all reliable reports didn't cross over let alone JF17s. The only such claim was made by IAF initially (about F16s) to show Pakistan as aggressor but they backtracked swiftly as it didn't fly well in their chosen line of defense with the global audience. More importantly, why risk getting your jet downed in enemy territory when you are carrying SOWs?

 

[arjunk]

- Who has documented this other than some spokesperson from the foreign ministry or another internal source. Is there a third party (ideal if neutral) study on this that I could read. I'd like to see where those numbers came from, both $120 billion and $150 billion.
- What if the coalition shelved $150 billion, heck $250 billion on Pakistan? Who believes the defense czars, the bickering divided self centered power hungry polity, us complacent and self hyping people would've made Pakistan a modern democratic marvel, an oasis in the Muslim world.

It sure as hell wouldn't have caused the country to enter a steep decline. Look how pissed even the rich French are at losing a similar amount of money. That's enough to buy almost ten thousand rotis for every person in Pakistan.

 

[Dazzler]

Surprised nobody is talking about this more, this is big.

It's known for a long time. The blk 3 patch shows dual racks with bvr+wvr.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Well this was told to me by an F-16 pilot based at Masroor. He used to come to my flat in i Clifton .
I Don't know if he was being boastful, or some F-16,had this issue and others were fine.
Yes there were successful ejections in the 90s from PAF F-16s, last in the 90s being in October 1994.

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

www.f-16.net

Also F-16s dont use MB seats so there is that