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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

Santions or no sanctions, Rolls-Royce engines are guaranteed to operate as per product specifications. I am sure Pakistan and China will not disclose how many times they overhauls JF-17 Block I aircraft's engines. China ordered more than 100 RD-93MA engines suggest that Pakistan intends to replace several engines during the lifetime of the aircraft. Costly exercise!

I know the Indian CAG report of RD-33MK engines. India asked Russia to rectify 17 major issues with Russian-made Klimov engines fitted into MiG-29K aircraft. India may play drums about aircraft carrier but truth is MiG-29K is inoperable due engine failures.

Malaysia no longer using any Russian aircraft. Russian aircrafts are grounded for the same reason India grounded more than half of the Su-30MKI and MiG-29UPG. Russia doesn't supply spare parts regularly. Old Soviet habits is to cannibalize aircraft hence cheaply produced and mass produced. Buy cheap buy twice.

Back to JF-17 Block III:
JF-17 is a good bird, could be better. JF-17 Block III is the opportunity for Pakistan to rethink what it wants in terms of its aerospace industries, not just the fighter jets. Pakistan should diversify and include private sectors. One you involve private sectors in the project, then you will see sanction mentality will disappear from everyone's mind.

They have discussed the RD93 in the past and that the engine life was low 2200 instead of 4000 (So roughly 11 years using average flight times for an aircraft). However you have forgotten that other Chinese projects also use the RD93 (FC31) The trick with these things is a good maintenance schedule and plan. (As the saying goes Amatuers talk tactics Professionals talk logistics)

The RD93MA has increased thrust and that is why it might be used to upgrade the JF17 rather than be a replacement for worn engines.
 
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RD-93MA is a deal breaker for Chile, Colombia and Ukraine.

I would consider Colombia and Ukraine are potential candidates if there is no Russian engines. China could offer Line of Credit and Pakistan could supply JF-17.
They will just have to wait until the WS13 becomes available.
 
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RD-93MA is the Russian baggage. Turkey offered Pakistan to rebuild the JF-17 with Aselsan's and TAI Avionics. TAI avionics and a Rolls-Royce engine will be more appealing to many foreign buyers. On top of that Denel A-Darter integration for Block III would be a great option.

Malaysia already said they have reservation about Russian engines. RD-93MA is the modified RD-33.


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You need to read more on this topic.

RD93 is not a baggage, with western engine's price of aircraft would exponentially increase. Supply of new engines and parts would become risky & expensive. Cost of maintenance would go up (servicing RD93 is cheaper than western engines despite requiring more frequent service). You are taking a well priced aircraft and increasing its price to F16, gripen and other soviet light - medium weight aircraft category price bracket. Currently it sits in a sweet spot suitable to dozens of countries who are fed up of being pushed around by the west.

Moreover, after introduction of FADEC - Full Authority Digital Engine Control System smoke is not a problem with RD series engines. It is one of the lightest, most powerful, reliable and easy to maintain engines with a modular design in its category. It even supersedes in its performance some of the western engines. RD93 is overall a very capable engine by every means.

I am posting a graph below from a user of an Indian forum, I have found his posts to be pretty informative when it comes to aircrafts. This graph supposedly compares RD33 to GE F404. It shows RD33 produces more thrust at 11000 feet pushing 60KN of thrust at with afterburner whereas at 10500 feet F404 is pushing only slightly over 50KN at same altitude & speed. There were comments about how RD33/93 engine components have been treated to bear higher temperatures than F404. Based on this Low- Medium altitude performance of JF would be very good.

As per the same poster RD33 has more use of advanced materials in the high pressure & heat parts. Eg, the third stage of high-pressure compressor, the high and low-pressure turbine discs and the high-pressure rotor drum shaft are all made of powder metallurgy materials, but in F404 these materials have not been used. RD33's high-pressure turbine blades are made of single crystal material, while F404 uses polycrystalline material Rene80. Therefore, one shouldn't think that the Soviet design is simple and crude. Russia is actually very willing to invest in key parts.

The whole philosophy behind JF is to get rid of western reliance. To gain freedom and not to be coerced by the west. We see countries like Australia blabbing & pushing anti China agendas just to please their western lords. Australia completely relies on US for defence. Australian defence would be at risk without US alliance. The day US and Australian interest would clash, you will know the true cost of relying too much on others!


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Don't know which ejection seats F-16 had in the early 90s. But back then PAF pilots flew the jets with non functioning ejection seats. The Americans had sanctioned Pakistan and spares weren't available.
Entirely not true. The seats were functioning just fine. 5/6 pilots who ejected in the 90s were recovered safely.
 
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You need to read more on this topic.

RD93 is not a baggage, with western engine's price of aircraft would exponentially increase. Supply of new engines and parts would become risky & expensive. Cost of maintenance would go up (servicing RD93 is cheaper than western engines despite requiring more frequent service). You are taking a well priced aircraft and increasing its price to F16, gripen and other soviet light - medium weight aircraft category price bracket. Currently it sits in a sweet spot suitable to dozens of countries who are fed up of being pushed around by the west.

Moreover, after introduction of FADEC - Full Authority Digital Engine Control System smoke is not a problem with RD series engines. It is one of the lightest, most powerful, reliable and easy to maintain engines with a modular designs in its category. It even supersedes in its performance some of the western engines. RD93 is overall a very capable engine by every means.

I am posting a graph below from a user of an Indian forum, I have found this guy to be pretty knowledgeable when it comes to aircrafts. This graph supposedly compares RD33 to GE F404. It shows RD33 produces more thrust at 11000 feet pushing 60KN of thrust at with afterburner whereas at 10500 feet F404 is pushing only slightly over 50KN at same altitude & speed. There were comments about how RD33/93 engine components have been treated to bear higher temperatures than F404. Based on this Low- Medium altitude performance of JF would be very good.

The whole philosophy behind JF is to get rid of western reliance. To gain freedom and not to be coerced by the west. We see countries like Australia blabbing & pushing anti China agendas just to please their western lords. Australia completely relies on US for defence. Australian defence would be at risk without US alliance. The day US and Australian interest would clash, you will know the true cost of relying too much on others!


View attachment 779032
Good post. However Russian engines come with their own supply issues. It's just that it is an alternate supplier than western sources.
 
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Good God!

If Pakistan said JF-17 Block I enough to fight Su-30MKI over Kashmir why would Pakistan took American F-16 and Swedish AEW&C to fight Indian Su-30MKI.

Enough vs Great! Which one does a buyer need?

Let me put it bluntly A-Darter is much better than PL-10. The latest generation A-Darter can knock any aerial target out of sky, subject to good AESA radar fitted into aircraft.


Oh my good ... you are just picking up that A-Darter part again with a bolt claim regardless we have any solid information on both systems to compare - but ignore all the fuss you said about the RR engine and Turkey's stupid claim?
 
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Good post. However Russian engines come with their own supply issues. It's just that it is an alternate supplier than western sources.

Everything has some strings attached. Where JF sits, RD is pretty much perfect. Plenty of Mig 29s around with interchangeable parts for JF. Even if spares become short, plenty of Mig 29s have similar engines, just like Pakistan bought used Mirages as donor aircrafts for parts.

Moreover our focus now should be Project Azm & 5th gen. PAF can't be bothered about random guys on internet wanting a new engine for an aircraft that it happily operates. For PAF the life span of JF is 20-25 years, they will be phased out. No need to spend extra time and mind on it at all.
 
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Another option - We will build it with EJ-220E in-house at kamra with TAI avionics if you ToT for XG-40A. Cost and Profit shared equally. Hows that?

RD-93MA is the Russian baggage. Turkey offered Pakistan to rebuild the JF-17 with Aselsan's and TAI Avionics. TAI avionics and a Rolls-Royce engine will be more appealing to many foreign buyers. On top of that Denel A-Darter integration for Block III would be a great option.

Malaysia already said they have reservation about Russian engines. RD-93MA is the modified RD-33.


View attachment 779013
 
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Another option - We will build it with EJ-220E in-house at kamra with TAI avionics if you ToT for XG-40A. Cost and Profit shared equally. Hows that?
I do remember someone talking about the JF17 being designed to take the EJ220 (It was probably you) So yes that would work!
 
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Dont put words in my mouth. I said we build it in-house if RR ToT XG-40A.

I do remember someone talking about the JF17 being designed to take the EJ220 (It was probably you) So yes that would work!
 
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RD-93MA is the Russian baggage. Turkey offered Pakistan to rebuild the JF-17 with Aselsan's and TAI Avionics. TAI avionics and a Rolls-Royce engine will be more appealing to many foreign buyers. On top of that Denel A-Darter integration for Block III would be a great option.

Malaysia already said they have reservation about Russian engines. RD-93MA is the modified RD-33.


View attachment 779013
There was no such offer. JF17 already uses Aselpod. Turks don’t have an AESA. A lot of other avionics are domestic. Which Rolls Royce engine?
 
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RD-93MA is the Russian baggage. Turkey offered Pakistan to rebuild the JF-17 with Aselsan's and TAI Avionics. TAI avionics and a Rolls-Royce engine will be more appealing to many foreign buyers. On top of that Denel A-Darter integration for Block III would be a great option.

Malaysia already said they have reservation about Russian engines. RD-93MA is the modified RD-33.


View attachment 779013
Judging on RD-33K (as RD-93MA detailed specs still missing) specs which came out before and with the long development cycle it has had, full FADEC and new engine blade technology the RD-93MA is practically a new engine with the premise that it has the same reliability or time between overhauls similar to western counterparts. Performance wise its now at par with the RR EJ-200 and PAF investing heavily in RD-93 maintenance and self reliance, so no sense in substitution now. During development engine option was kept open for JF-17 , RD-93, EJ-200 & M-88 were evaluated and RD-93 was selected because it gave best value for money. EJ-200 compared to original RD-93 had slight advantage in thrust and fuel economy but was alot more expensive. So was still rumored that EJ-200 equipped JF-17 could be a option if JF-17 was ever chosen for induction by Saudi's but that didn't happen. There was a source on Sinodefence clarifying that WS-13 and RD-93 are practically identical with both countries sharing information, Chinese obtained or developed new engine blade technology which Russia had difficulty before and this adds the reliability or long life they were not able to achieve before. So either WS-13 or RD-93MA, the product is same.

PAF already uses some systems and avionics from, Turkey (eg targeting pod) Spanish (eg Indra datalink and more), Italian (eg Selex MFDs and more) and French (eg Oxygen regenerator) sources. Complete TAI avionics equipped JF-17 will only happen if Turks them self make a order for JF-17 with that requirement or their systems offer any advantage over competitor supplier subsystem for any future JF-17 Block-4+ variant. Otherwise unlikely.
 
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Good God!

If Pakistan said JF-17 Block I enough to fight Su-30MKI over Kashmir why would Pakistan took American F-16 and Swedish AEW&C to fight Indian Su-30MKI.

Enough vs Great! Which one does a buyer need?

Let me put it bluntly A-Darter is much better than PL-10. The latest generation A-Darter can knock any aerial target out of sky, subject to good AESA radar fitted into aircraft.
And you say this on what basis? When has a comparative analysis of the 2 been published? I cant even recall data for A darter having been published much less PL 10. Even if data has been published how do you know what outcpmes they will have when fired? There maybe complications mating the A Darter to the Chinese radar. Please avoid making such sweeping statements. The fact is we do not know the outcomes of hoth missiles. There mayb3 multiple factors on the basis of which one might perform better than the other.
A
 
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Don't know which ejection seats F-16 had in the early 90s. But back then PAF pilots flew the jets with non functioning ejection seats. The Americans had sanctioned Pakistan and spares weren't available.

The occasion and jet, are different to what you are referring. That's not about F-16.
 
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