JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Akh1112]

Yes it is. All @kursed is saying here is that this process will/should/does take decades. This shouldn't be breaking news to anyone (but apparently it is).

whaaaaaa?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Ark_Angel

(Its not, i discussed this with Bilal a few days ago IIRC)

 

[MIRauf]

It was in jest, do not cry.

None shed, none ever will, that doesn't mean I don't have a soft spot for Pakistan. I bid you good fortunes in our "In Home MALE" endeavor.

 

[Caprxl]

I bid you good fortunes in our "In Home MALE" endeavor.

Thank You

 

[jedijedi]

Not my opinion, just referencing a news story. After the massive purge of the Turkish air foece (The core of the coup plotters), Turkey had less than 1 pilot per plane. 2 pilots for every 3 planes if I remember correctly) they were pulling pilots out of retirement and out of airlines to fly their F-16s. Hiring a few Pakistani pilots to help is win win for both air forces. It’s not insult to the fine capabilities of the Turkish Air Force, just a reflection of how severe the purge was.

maybe the story is false, Greek propaganda, but it maybe true considering the extend of the purge in 2016. Can any Turkish member shed some light on this matter?

EXCLUSIVE: Turkey Has Borrowed Pakistani F-16 Fighter Jet Pilots As Erdogan Attempts To Fill The 'Coup' Void - Reports

Since the 2016 coup attempt against Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish Air Force has been severely crippled. The main perpetrators are believed to have been from the Turkish Air Force after they unsuccessfully tried to launch a coup. Were Haiti, Lebanon & Now Turkey Subjected To...

eurasiantimes.com

Just like you wouldn't generally trust a sensational piece about PAF from an Indian journalist or vice versa, you should take anything coming from a Greek journalist about the Turkish Air Fore with a pinch of salt.

How fast can the Block 3 go? And is it’s engine reliable for sand storm climate?

That is an oddly specific question.

To be honest. Turks give nationality. So they can easily give pak pilots nationality and america hasn't got a leg to stand on

Do you have anything to share with us before you buy the PAF pilots to Turkey claim that suggests this is worth a look and not lame yellow journalism.

Oh dear...
Good. Your glass will always be half empty and now I know you know nothing. Have a nice day

Any thinking person wouldn't worry about the frequency of someone's claims being pessimistic but look at merits of those claims.

It's wonderful to see our detractors say we can't do this or we can't do that. Please, by all means keep saying that, it only drives us to go from strength to strength in our pursuit for independence in aviation technology, design and manufacturing. The word "impossible" doesn't exist in us and losing is not an option for us. Pakistan is and will continue to prevail against all odds, in-sha-Allah!!

I almost cried with emotion and almost jumped up from my seat to chant patriotic slogans in an empty room here. The word impossible is never heard in Pakistan but let me give you a few 'almost impossibles'.

- It is almost impossible to keep an argument within realms of common sense, logic and rationale in Pakistan without someone bringing in nationalistic and religious sentiment card!
- It is impossible to bring in economic realities of Pakistan when discussing defense as it seems too pessimistic, anti-national or just boring.
- It is impossible to go 3 posts in this thread before someone diverts off the JF17 block 3 topic.

and lastly, let me break it to you. We have lost in the past, and we may lose in the future if we do not learn lessons and keep dragging our mistakes under the carpet.

Even with the investment PAF had to fight tooth and nail to get the fighter to where it is today. I think people seem to think the Chinese to the Pakistanis is like Walmart. Go in and puck up any thing you want. People who make procurements know how difficult this is and sometimes what a struggle Pak establishment has to go through to get certain high quality stuff. Even with the JFT there have been times when PAF has gone on and threatened to use third party subsystems before the Chinese come-out with their best. And why should they? They have spent countless hours and umpteen millions making their hardware.
A

There are naïve people everywhere, we're no different here.

"wow grape make 6th gen aircraft"
View attachment 687782

Are you really surprised by the responses?lol

 

[Tipu7]

PAF’s choice of MALE is Wing Long II, that’d tell you where Azm is headed. Cheers!

Says who!
Atleast One of PAF specific domestic product is already flying. More are under development.

 

[Bilal.]

Yes it is. All @kursed is saying here is that this process will/should/does take decades. This shouldn't be breaking news to anyone (but apparently it is).

That is exactly my confusion from day one of the public announcement of this program. We have seen much more advanced countries struggle for decades to reach the goals set out for AZM. Yet we have two air chiefs claiming to the contrary again and again, which doesn’t add up.

 

[Marker]

How fast can the Block 3 go? And is it’s engine reliable for sand storm climate?

JF-17 Blk 3 will be having upgraded version of RD-93MA with higher dry and wet thrust, which will obviously enhance its max speed to Mach 2.

Sand storm may occur in Thar desert, some light dust whirls are being observed in Punjab. But maximum height is about 30 to 40 feet.

Normally jet aircraft fly above this height unless the mission demands low altitude.

Also note that none of PAF operational bases and FOBs operate in Thar desert.

Ingestion of sand may cause two types of damage inside the jet engine.
1. Compressor erosion and pitting.
2. Corrosion

If a jet engine is subject to such incident, then a thorough borescope inspection is suppose to be carried out to determine any anomaly exist due to ingestion of high speed sand particles. Any visible fatigue sign calls for engine removal and necessary repair and replacement of part.

 

[Nasr]

I almost cried with emotion and almost jumped up from my seat to chant patriotic slogans in an empty room here. The word impossible is never heard in Pakistan but let me give you a few 'almost impossibles'.

- It is almost impossible to keep an argument within realms of common sense, logic and rationale in Pakistan without someone bringing in nationalistic and religious sentiment card!

- It is impossible to bring in economic realities of Pakistan when discussing defense as it seems too pessimistic, anti-national or just boring.

- It is impossible to go 3 posts in this thread before someone diverts off the JF17 block 3 topic.

and lastly, let me break it to you. We have lost in the past, and we may lose in the future if we do not learn lessons and keep dragging our mistakes under the carpet.

There are naïve people everywhere, we're no different here.

I am aware of our short comings, no body is perfect and every country has faced losses (even america, the great superpower everyone harps on about). We came close to losing, your perception of loss is off the mark. Pakistan has the practical ability to accomplish it's objectives. Yes we have had our bad turns, everyone has had them ... Europe and its countless wars, Japan and is rise n fall, america in Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia ... britain in Afghanistan, Las Malvinas Islands and against the Zulus.

I am not much of a Patriot, at least not in the sense everyone perceives a Patriot to be. I am a Muslim first and foremost, and to me Pakistan belongs to Islam and not the other way round. I don't delve into what you define as wildly charged argument about religion or nationalism. I study my enemy, but more importantly I study my short comings and that of my country's.

Based on what I have studied, my real life experiences, my interactions with those on the ground (professionals) and the study of the current geo-political climate, it remains factual that Pakistan has come out unscathed despite all odds. And trust me when I say this, in no uncertain terms ... the odds have been heavily stacked against us for quite sometime now.n

So what I say to the detractors of Pakistan, every word is meant with practical intent and preparation.

 

[Marker]

That is exactly my confusion from day one of the public announcement of this program. We have seen much more advanced countries struggle for decades to reach the goals set out for AZM. Yet we have two air chiefs claiming to the contrary again and again, which doesn’t add up.

Yes, the technologies involve in making 5th gen aircraft require huge number of skilled man-hours, very costly infra structure and sizable amount of financial resources, if Pakistan pursue from scratch.

It seems that PAF strategy is to acquire off the shelf available technologies and infra structure from China, Turkey, may be Russia, and many other "friendly" countries to cut down the initial input of valuable resources. On availability of these techs and infra structure, PAF engineers and scientist may work around to create or upgrade the available techs to fulfil their requirements to meet the existing and future challenge or threats.

Do not forget how Pakistan attain the nuclear capability. Pakistan was ready for nuclear test since 1977. It means, Pakistan was able to acquire the required tech to carry out nuclear test within three years after Indian first nuclear test in 1974.

 

[FuturePAF]

Just like you wouldn't generally trust a sensational piece about PAF from an Indian journalist or vice versa, you should take anything coming from a Greek journalist about the Turkish Air Fore with a pinch of salt.

Your right. It does look like a suspicious story. I should have been more careful considering the source. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[StormBreaker]

Is block 3 even a thing or a myth ?

No update, nothing on it since a year

 

[626]

JF-17 BlockIII prototype machine (part one)-Speaking from the composite skin
Valkyrie
2020-01-03 23:29
The news of the first flight of JF-17 Block III (Fierce Dragon 3) did not produce "high-temperature fermentation" on the Internet media. The editor believes that there are two reasons for this: one is that the current Chinese military fans are in the blowout development mode of China's rapid military technology, their vision and style of appreciation have already risen, and fighters like the J-10C will all look at them. Not to the eye, let alone the lightweight and cheap model of JF-17; the second is that the current online article "Interpretation of JF-17 BlockIII Prototype", its interpretation perspective lacks new ideas, analysis of JF-17 BlockIII The content of the prototype itself is too little, and more of the content of the weapon system. It has a cliché and a sense of chewing wax. It can't lift the spirit at all, so it can't resonate... The editor dares to "look at the picture and talk" and speak out-even if not. If you are not a fan, even if the donkey's lips are not right, there is no regret. Whether it's applause or bricks, I am pleased with it...
The JF-17 BlockIII prototype has fewer photos, but the amount of information conveyed from the limited "photos" is enough to shock "wishful people" worldwide...

As early as 2015, the Pakistan Air Force has confirmed the existence of the JF-17 BlockIII improvement plan. In February 2017, Pakistan Aviation Complex (PAC) Chairman Assad Malik (Arshad Malik) emphasized through the media that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will issue a copy to the Pakistan Aviation Complex (PAC) in the first half of 2017. Purchase order for 50 JF-17 BlockIII fighters. JF-17 Block-III, as the latest improvement of the "Raiden" fighter, will be equipped with a quasi-fourth generation avionics system and active phased array radar.


JF-17 Block III prototype number 3000

The U.S. "Aviation Weekly and Space Technology" and "Defense News" are even more vowed to report that the technical performance of JF-17 Block III will be greatly improved, including the replacement of the 14th research institute developed by the "China Electronics Technology" Group. KLJ-7A active phased array radar, infrared search and tracking system added in front of the cockpit, helmet display/pointing system added for pilots, single large-size multifunctional color display (MFD) in the cockpit, new avionics, fire control software Wait.

So, through the "photos" of the JF-17 BlockIII prototype, can we confirm which of the above "old rumors"?

Big talk: "JF-17 BlockIII prototype" body skin!
Under normal circumstances, the body skin of the prototype is covered by "yellow", commonly known as "yellow skin machine". "Yellow skin" is actually an anticorrosive coating (anticorrosive paint) attached to a light alloy (usually aluminum alloy). In the part close to the tail nozzle of the engine, because of the high temperature, anti-rust treatment is required. Therefore, anti-rust paint needs to be added. Therefore, the skin on the tail of the body will be more vivid than the "yellow" skins on other parts of the body...

In addition to the "yellow" skin, there will be "gray" or "dark gray". Early radomes were made of high-strength glass steel materials, and the paint coating was off-white. With high silica glass fiber, aramid fiber, quartz fiber and other light weight, wave-transmitting, impact resistance, deformation resistance, and tensile resistance are better With the advent of composite materials, the color of the radome has gradually changed from "gray" to "dark gray." In addition, the "green" or "light green" body skin is also a sign of composite materials (such as carbon fiber materials, transparent fiber materials).


Comparison of JF-17 BlockIII (Fierce Dragon 3) Prototype and F-10C Prototype

The JF-17 BlockIII and J-10C in the picture are both in prototype state. By visually comparing the appearance, the following conclusions can be drawn:

First of all, JF-17 BlockIII and the J-10C prototype are in a completely different flight test phase.
The F-10C prototype in the picture has a dark gray fiber material (for example: polyethylene fiber, with excellent dielectric properties in the range of X band to mm band) installed at the nose cone of the nose. An airborne infrared detection and tracking system commonly known as "photosphere" has been installed in the front of the cockpit. This shows that the radar system and photoelectric system of the J-10C prototype in the picture have been installed in place, and its flight test mission has entered the stage of testing the fire control system and the passive perception ability.

On the other hand, the JF-17 BlockIII prototype has the nose cone painted in yellow, and it directly replaces the radome with lightweight alloy shaping. This shows that the JF-17 BlockIII prototype is not equipped with a radar system, only the same size counterweight model is arranged in the nose and nose cone according to the real radar system shape. This shows that the JF-17 BlockIII prototype shown in the photo is still in the initial stage of flight test tasks, and it is only at the verification stage to verify the aerodynamics, center of gravity trim, and whether the flight control and bus system control meet the design requirements. .

Secondly, the proportion of JF-17 BlockIII body skin using composite materials exceeds that of J-10C
Observe the JF-17 BlockIII and F-10C prototypes from the top-down perspective in the figure. The body of the JF-17 BlockIII prototype is covered by the composite body skin and is similar to the F-10C.

The composite skin of the JF-17 BlockIII prototype airframe starts from the "back" position of the airframe: it extends laterally to the position where the entire wing is flush with the distal end of the flaps, and integrates the JF-17's iconic "arched wing" It also covers them. Longitudinal, extending forward along the "back" of the fuselage, flush with the front of the "clam intake", and extending backward along the "back" of the fuselage to the level of the flaps. Due to the lack of a bottom view of the JF-17 BlockIII prototype, it is impossible to observe the under-wing skin material. However, according to the J-10C prototype for reference, it can be seen that composite materials are also used; in addition, the position of the first cockpit of the JF-17 BlockIII prototype is positive. On the lower sides, a large area of composite skin is also used.

The use of carbon fiber composite materials in Chinese fighters was first traced back to the "J-8II era", but it was limited by the level of carbon fiber production technology in China at that time, and the proportion was very small. China's first three-generation fighter J-10A with independent intellectual property rights, and its body skin carbon fiber composite material consumption reached 6%. The F-10B and F-10C use carbon fiber materials on a large area of the wings, and the amount of composite materials for the body skin exceeds 10%.


The layout of JF-17B prototype skin composite material is very similar to JF-17 BlockIII

In 2018, the JF-17B two-seater version that participated in the Pakistan National Day military parade has adopted a new vertical tail made of composite material skin. It is believed that subsequent JF-17 BlockIII prototypes will also use a vertical tail similar to JF-17B. At that time, the amount of skin composite materials used in the JF-17 BlockIII body will further increase. Then, the proportion of JF-17 BlockIII body skin composite materials will far exceed the J-10C, and even reach or exceed the order of 20%.

In the world, composite materials are also "expensive products". A generally accepted saying is: the use ratio of composite materials for the third generation machine is about 3% to 12%, and the use ratio of composite materials for the fourth generation machine is about 20% to 30%. % (Of course, Asan’s "Glorious" fighter is a special case, the proportion of composite materials used is as high as 40%, in addition to being admired, it can only be admired).

So, the JF-17 (Xiaolong), which is positioned as a light and cheap third-generation machine, and its latest improved model, adopts such a "large-scale" use of composite materials, which can only be described as "awesome"...

Big story: Who gave JF-17 BlockIII the confidence to use composite materials?
The manufacturing level of composite materials is a measure of a country's aerospace and aviation industry manufacturing capabilities, and it is also a mirror that comprehensively reflects a country's basic research, precision manufacturing, and industrial hard power. Therefore, the technological competition and competition in the field of new materials by the major technological powers is extremely cruel.

The European and American powers have generally adopted composite materials from the era of the "third-generation machine". Under the premise of ensuring that the structural strength of the fighter aircraft meets the design requirements, the composite material can greatly reduce the fighter’s own weight, and its anti-fatigue, anti-deformation, and anti-rust properties are superior to aviation alloy aluminum. Some special composite materials also have The function of reducing the strong reflection of radar waves. The production and manufacturing process of fighter aircraft and the proportion of composite materials used can, to a certain extent, truly reflect a country's technical level in many aspects such as materials, craftsmanship, and design.

The Western world has imposed embargo and blockade policies on China for a long time in the production and manufacturing of composite materials.

Take carbon fiber composite materials as an example: Carbon fiber materials can be roughly divided into high-strength T series, high-modulus M series, and high-strength and high-modulus MJ series according to technical indicators such as "tensile strength, elastic modulus, and elongation at break". In the high-strength T series, it is divided into general standard model (T300 level), high-strength standard model (T700 level), high-strength medium model (T800 level), high-strength model (T1000 level) and ultra-high-strength medium model (T1100).

T700 and T800 grade carbon fiber composite materials are commonly used in military aircraft, missile (intercontinental missile) manufacturing and spacecraft manufacturing. Therefore, Europe and the United States have formulated extremely strict embargo policies on such carbon fiber materials, technology and production. , There have even been incidents in which Chinese businessmen purchased T800-related products in the United States and directly became defendants.

Research on composite materials in China began in the 1960s (or even earlier), but it has long been limited by basic research, weak industrial foundations and financial support, and a shortage of relevant talents. As of the beginning of the 21st century, China has only Complete small-scale industrial production and manufacturing of T300 series products.

With the continuous continuation and deepening of reform and opening up, the country’s comprehensive national strength has continued to increase. The materials will be reviewed from the outline of the national key R&D plan in the “Eleventh Five-Year”, “Twelfth Five-year With the continuous increase of financial support and investment in the scientific field, China's composite material technology has begun to blow out.

Since 2009, China has successively broken through the large-scale industrial production technologies and processes of T300, T700, T-800, M30, M55, and T1000 carbon fibers in the carbon fiber field. In 2018, China broke the T1100 carbon fiber production and manufacturing technology that has been monopolized by Japan in one fell swoop. This is the world's strongest and most cutting-edge carbon fiber technology. In 2019, China has achieved small-scale production of 100-ton T1100 carbon fiber, and the 1,000-ton production line is expected to be realized after 2020.

At present, China's carbon fiber production output ranks second in the world, and China's T700, T800 and T1000 carbon fiber production capacity has reached 10,000 tons and 1,000 tons respectively. In China's arsenal, the Dongfeng series of new missiles, the Eagle Strike series of new and modified missiles, the Hongqi series of air defense missiles, the F-20, FC-31, and the F-16 all use domestic carbon fiber materials.

Chinese carbon fiber materials have "Chinese characteristics". Take T800 carbon fiber as an example: domestic T800 carbon fiber has an average tensile strength of 5.63 GPa, an average elastic modulus of 292 GPa, and an average elongation at break of 1.9%. The modulus of elasticity and elongation at break are equivalent to the Japanese T800 grade, but the average tensile strength is stronger than the Japanese T800 grade. However, under the large-scale industrial production mode of China's T800 grade carbon fiber, its cost is only ⅓ of similar international products, less than 350 yuan per kilogram.

So, where does JF-17 BlockIII's massive use of composite materials come from? We are still more reserved, the benevolent see benevolence, the wise see wisdom, it is better!

Final summary
In recent years, there have been many instances of T800-grade carbon fiber materials being applied to the body skins of new-generation third-generation and fourth-generation aircraft. The famous French Rafale M, in its promotional materials, praised its body composite material, which is too high a lot of "worth" (due to the earlier development of F22, its carbon fiber material is T700 grade).


JF-17B two-seater version lined up offline

On April 27, 2017, the JF-17B two-seater version of Xiaolong flew for the first time. This is the "first model" of JF-17 series fighters using composite materials in large quantities, and the first foreign trade model to enjoy the "technical dividend of China's T800 carbon fiber material". On December 28, 2019, the JF-17 BlockIII prototype flew for the first time. This must be a foreign trade model that enjoys a higher and wider “Chinese technology dividend”.

The Pakistani military has a "quasi-four generation" desire for JF-17 BlockIII's comprehensive combat performance. Whether this goal can be achieved is still very uncertain. However, if we ignore the uncertain factors such as weapon systems and electronic equipment, and only look at the application technology and level of the body materials, it seems to be really interesting...

 

[Caprxl]

Shaheen mian,
It’s been a hell long wait. Just hint me about any timeline in which we can expect a public image or whatever, Please.

@Caprxl Brother, Any significant update in terms of revelation?

Is block 3 even a thing or a myth ?

No update, nothing on it since a year

Brother you must be knowing something about Qubit, the basic unit of Quantum Computing where as opposed to Classical Computing a bit (or in this case a Qubit) can have both values 0 & 1 at the same time;

Well the answer to the serial production of Blk 3 is kind of following the same Qubit property.

The answer is YES & NO at the same time

All I can say is more prototypes/testing probably/definitely on line (news may or may not come out of further/final prototype) but time is not being wasted at all for delaying serial production.

is it only me or did someone else notice that the latest programme on JFT seems to suggest that we are now building the whole fuselage. If so this is another very significant development for us.
A

I wanted to ask something. Recently produced videos (at least) give the impression that the PAF is now manufacturing 100% of the body including the middle fuselage which China has previously manufactured.
Is this a true interpretation or false one? Help would be appreciated
Regards
A

You are correct, % building of fuselage has increased. Cannot say the exact number for obvious reasons but it is a good news nevertheless

 

[Riz]

Says who!
Atleast One of PAF specific domestic product is already flying. More are under development.

Burraq?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Will block 3 incorporate Hobs missile and jhmcs technology?