JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Nomad40]

block-3 will be getting RD-93MA and not ws-13 (there was never a chance for ws-13 as i had explained previously)

Which will boost the the thrust upto 1203 pounds/546.58kg = +5.35 kn which will result in the total thrust output of 90.95kn, Providing the Jf-17 with T/W 1.076

1400 kg of fuel
2 bvr
2 SRAAM
100 kg pilot

 

[aliaselin]

block-3 will be getting RD-93MA and not ws-13 (there was never a chance for ws-13 as i had explained previously)

Which will boost the the thrust upto 1203 pounds/546.58kg = +5.35 kn which will result in the total thrust output of 90.95kn, Providing the Jf-17 with T/W 1.076

1400 kg of fuel
2 bvr
2 SRAAM
100 kg pilot

Your explain is meaningless because RD-93MA has never been certified because Pakistan does not pay for it.
It is the same story as 6TD-5 as I have stated many years ago. Only Pakistan needs the engine but not pay, then no results.

 

[Nomad40]

Your explain is meaningless because RD-93MA has never been certified because Pakistan does not pay for it.

Thanks for the input have a great day

 

[Aasimkhan]

Your thoughts are good. My concern always is to have people from armed forces putting their finger where it does not belong - leave it to us developers and engineers to do the work as required. The issue I digress from what I observe a self inflicted one. People have put the army volks on a pedestal as they are know all- that is a falacy and root cause of the problem. If it means organizing and project management - you have project managers for that; not an army general who knows dickall about planning or a pilot - who knows nothing about control systems etc or an artillery person about the mechanics of propellant research - the list goes on.

Just look at the mess Egypt has been for decades and it will remain in that manner.

Pak has the ability and people to do any chart of direction they need to go. Have confidence and the govt needs to lay the foundations for that; Erdogan is a casing point - he castrated the generals and told them to remain and protect the frontier. He pushed resources and money into R&D and intellectual capital from universities and institutions - the results are all in front of us. That is the same direction that Pak must follow. Until, Mullah or Army fingering stops; Pak will never progress.

@MastanKhan

The on-ground reality/facts in Pakistan are totally opposite to what you said. In Pakistan only those projects have progressed which were directly under Army control (fighter jets, tanks, nuclear weapons, submarines, naval ships etc etc). Neither our govt nor our private sector has made any progress in any military or civil projects. Under corrupt politicians our institutions like PIA, Steel Mill, Railways, health, education and all other departments have failed, so my friend dont tell us what to do.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As things are slowly becoming clearer on the capability of Block III, I started thinking in terms of what a block IV Thunder would look like:


· An improved thrust to weight ratio. A new power plant possibly western possibly moving to a GE/P&W or a RR/SAFRAN kit. Chinese engines have just not materialized and the low MTBO is a real bummer. Maybe we can collaborate with Turkey to do something about this.

· Adding a vectoring nozzle for true super-maneuverability. I am sure PAF would be looking to get one onto a Thunder in a future block.

· An updated and improved HOBS (high off bore-sight) capability slaved to a better laid out glass cockpit and a new helmet, maybe the new Chinese ones or the Thales TopOwl.

· A better IR (infra-red) tracking system mated to the airframe. Podded system will just eat away weapons carrying capability.

· Updated EW (electronic warfare, jamming) capabilities.

· An improved electronic countermeasures & threat warning receivers probably moving away from the Chinese stuff and adopting mix of European equipment,

· Updated the comms./radios and data-linking vs today’s block 2. If this doesn’t happen in block 3, they will surely do it for the block 4 upgrades.

· Conformal fuel tanks (CFT) to improve range and free up pylons for armaments. The heavier aircraft would likely need more thrust and strengthening the structure and the landing gear for starters.

· A real innovation would be to look at a towed decoy system to add into the airframe if there is space. This would be a game changer.


I’d expect block 3 entering service in 2021 and full operational conversion capability in 2022. A block 4 update will commence around that sort of time for a 2028 entry into service.


What PAF basically would be building would be a block 70 Viper but for a fraction of the cost of an actual Block 70! If done properly it would be an impressive a/c by any standards.


I also think this would be the last upgrade of the Thunder as the airframe would hit its peak load and expansion capacity. I don’t see stealth being built into the airframe as it would require extensive rework of airframe and retooling. However, stealth coatings will be added.

 

[Kingslayerr]

As things are slowly becoming clearer on the capability of Block III, I started thinking in terms of what a block IV Thunder would look like:


· An improved thrust to weight ratio. A new power plant possibly western possibly moving to a GE/P&W or a RR/SAFRAN kit. Chinese engines have just not materialized and the low MTBO is a real bummer. Maybe we can collaborate with Turkey to do something about this.

· Adding a vectoring nozzle for true super-maneuverability. I am sure PAF would be looking to get one onto a Thunder in a future block.

· An updated and improved HOBS (high off bore-sight) capability slaved to a better laid out glass cockpit and a new helmet, maybe the new Chinese ones or the Thales TopOwl.

· A better IR (infra-red) tracking system mated to the airframe. Podded system will just eat away weapons carrying capability.

· Updated EW (electronic warfare, jamming) capabilities.

· An improved electronic countermeasures & threat warning receivers probably moving away from the Chinese stuff and adopting mix of European equipment,

· Updated the comms./radios and data-linking vs today’s block 2. If this doesn’t happen in block 3, they will surely do it for the block 4 upgrades.

· Conformal fuel tanks (CFT) to improve range and free up pylons for armaments. The heavier aircraft would likely need more thrust and strengthening the structure and the landing gear for starters.

· A real innovation would be to look at a towed decoy system to add into the airframe if there is space. This would be a game changer.


I’d expect block 3 entering service in 2021 and full operational conversion capability in 2022. A block 4 update will commence around that sort of time for a 2028 entry into service.


What PAF basically would be building would be a block 70 Viper but for a fraction of the cost of an actual Block 70! If done properly it would be an impressive a/c by any standards.


I also think this would be the last upgrade of the Thunder as the airframe would hit its peak load and expansion capacity. I don’t see stealth being built into the airframe as it would require extensive rework of airframe and retooling. However, stealth coatings will be added.

Before going to block 4 I'd like to see block 1s and 2s to be converted to block 3s. An aesa radar, ew suit etc.Bring the block 1s and 2s very close to the capabilities of block 3 and this will be the real game changer.

 

[airomerix]

As things are slowly becoming clearer on the capability of Block III, I started thinking in terms of what a block IV Thunder would look like:

· An improved thrust to weight ratio. A new power plant possibly western possibly moving to a GE/P&W or a RR/SAFRAN kit. Chinese engines have just not materialized and the low MTBO is a real bummer. Maybe we can collaborate with Turkey to do something about this.

The basic idea of JF-17 is to diminish dependence on western countries for critical systems. The engine is one of them. It will be risky and expensive.

· Adding a vectoring nozzle for true super-maneuverability. I am sure PAF would be looking to get one onto a Thunder in a future block.

It requires redesign and it is just not worth the buck. Super cruise is something which may save us fuel in the long run. But TVC is for circus only.

· An updated and improved HOBS (high off bore-sight) capability slaved to a better laid out glass cockpit and a new helmet, maybe the new Chinese ones or the Thales TopOwl.

On cards for later tranch's of Block 3.

· A better IR (infra-red) tracking system mated to the airframe. Podded system will just eat away weapons carrying capability.

Agreed. Much needed. Chinese are asking for $$$ to develop a system small enough to fit in JF-17's nose cone.

· Updated EW (electronic warfare, jamming) capabilities.

Block 3 is very impressive in this segment. Block 2 Bravo's will follow suit.

· Updated the comms./radios and data-linking vs today’s block 2. If this doesn’t happen in block 3, they will surely do it for the block 4 upgrades.

JF-17's data link is excellent and has been functioning flawlessly even in combat situations (swift retort and later). Practically unhackable.

· Conformal fuel tanks (CFT) to improve range and free up pylons for armaments. The heavier aircraft would likely need more thrust and strengthening the structure and the landing gear for starters.

JF-17's current combat radius is excellent for a country of Pakistan's size. Long range stand-off weapons should be the focus area.

· A real innovation would be to look at a towed decoy system to add into the airframe if there is space. This would be a game changer.

An interesting suggestion. The tail does have abundance of space though.

I’d expect block 3 entering service in 2021 and full operational conversion capability in 2022. A block 4 update will commence around that sort of time for a 2028 entry into service.

Block 4 depends on Block 3's maturity. I'm guessing we may not need Block 4. J-31's will arrive by then.

What PAF basically would be building would be a block 70 Viper but for a fraction of the cost of an actual Block 70! If done properly it would be an impressive a/c by any standards.


I also think this would be the last upgrade of the Thunder as the airframe would hit its peak load and expansion capacity. I don’t see stealth being built into the airframe as it would require extensive rework of airframe and retooling. However, stealth coatings will be added.

Agreed.

 

[PeacefulWar]

As things are slowly becoming clearer on the capability of Block III, I started thinking in terms of what a block IV Thunder would look like:


· An improved thrust to weight ratio. A new power plant possibly western possibly moving to a GE/P&W or a RR/SAFRAN kit. Chinese engines have just not materialized and the low MTBO is a real bummer. Maybe we can collaborate with Turkey to do something about this.

· Adding a vectoring nozzle for true super-maneuverability. I am sure PAF would be looking to get one onto a Thunder in a future block.

· An updated and improved HOBS (high off bore-sight) capability slaved to a better laid out glass cockpit and a new helmet, maybe the new Chinese ones or the Thales TopOwl.

· A better IR (infra-red) tracking system mated to the airframe. Podded system will just eat away weapons carrying capability.

· Updated EW (electronic warfare, jamming) capabilities.

· An improved electronic countermeasures & threat warning receivers probably moving away from the Chinese stuff and adopting mix of European equipment,

· Updated the comms./radios and data-linking vs today’s block 2. If this doesn’t happen in block 3, they will surely do it for the block 4 upgrades.

· Conformal fuel tanks (CFT) to improve range and free up pylons for armaments. The heavier aircraft would likely need more thrust and strengthening the structure and the landing gear for starters.

· A real innovation would be to look at a towed decoy system to add into the airframe if there is space. This would be a game changer.


I’d expect block 3 entering service in 2021 and full operational conversion capability in 2022. A block 4 update will commence around that sort of time for a 2028 entry into service.


What PAF basically would be building would be a block 70 Viper but for a fraction of the cost of an actual Block 70! If done properly it would be an impressive a/c by any standards.


I also think this would be the last upgrade of the Thunder as the airframe would hit its peak load and expansion capacity. I don’t see stealth being built into the airframe as it would require extensive rework of airframe and retooling. However, stealth coatings will be added.

More like your personal wish list regards the western parts, not very realistic tbh.
As long as any these facts don't change 1. Pakistan and USA still don't trust each other 2. CAC is still the leading/main contributor , those items in your list are almost impossible.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

More like your personal wish list regards the western parts, not very realistic tbh.
As long as any these facts don't change 1. Pakistan and USA still don't trust each other 2. CAC is still the leading/main contributor , those items in your list are almost impossible.

The event horizon is six year from now. If you recall, Block II was supposed to have western electronics. And, I am guessing here, that JFT with western electronics were offered for export. So western electronics and mating weapons are not such a big issue. However, the biggest headache has been a high thrust light weight engine. between now and 2028 a lot can happen. Maybe a better Russian engine...

 

[Bilal.]

The basic idea of JF-17 is to diminish dependence on western countries for critical systems. The engine is one of them. It will be risky and expensive.



It requires redesign and it is just not worth the buck. Super cruise is something which may save us fuel in the long run. But TVC is for circus only.



On cards for later tranch's of Block 3.



Agreed. Much needed. Chinese are asking for $$$ to develop a system small enough to fit in JF-17's nose cone.



Block 3 is very impressive in this segment. Block 2 Bravo's will follow suit.



JF-17's data link is excellent and has been functioning flawlessly even in combat situations (swift retort and later). Practically unhackable.



JF-17's current combat radius is excellent for a country of Pakistan's size. Long range stand-off weapons should be the focus area.



An interesting suggestion. The tail does have abundance of space though.



Block 4 depends on Block 3's maturity. I'm guessing we may not need Block 4. J-31's will arrive by then.



Agreed.

Adding to the list:

- OBOGS for extended operations
- Cooperative jamming
- Cooperative targeting
- Leonardo BriteCloud
- Move to GaN based AESA and jammers
- A proper counterpart (or better) AAM to meteor with AESA seeker

 

[ziaulislam]

Your explain is meaningless because RD-93MA has never been certified because Pakistan does not pay for it.
It is the same story as 6TD-5 as I have stated many years ago. Only Pakistan needs the engine but not pay, then no results.

Well..paying for it without getting rights also doesnt make sense..we pay for it and than russians sell it with newer migs or another customer ..no doesnt make sense..

Yes producing top of the line jet engine is indeed right at the pinnacle of engineering. An engine that can enable the jet to have super cruise and has very high thrust to weight ratio is indeed beyond the engineering capabilities of Pakistan and majority of the countries of the world.


That being said the technology behind jet engines isn't new nor is the theory behind it some outworldly magic science. The Germans made the jet engine back in 1945. I did my undergrad in mechanical and we were taught at the theoratical level every single aspect of it.

To produce a rudimentary engine as a proof of concept shouldn't be beyond the capacity of Pakistani engineers (not saying that engine would be good enough to put in a jet). It would however require time and human capital with plenty of funding. This we don't have. Once the initial proof of concept is made it can be incrementally improved

There are dozens of YouTube videos of people making basic functioning jet engines in their backyards or garages.

Issue is R&D , Money
Comes back to affordibility

Hence we should go into JV to decrease cost

 

[Viper27]

What we wanted is a modern combat aircraft we could indigenously produce & maintain at low cost. The Block 3 appears to fulfil our basic requirements. Everything else will come later. You can point out a million things in the F-35 from a personal wishlist.

 

[PeacefulWar]

The event horizon is six year from now. If you recall, Block II was supposed to have western electronics. And, I am guessing here, that JFT with western electronics were offered for export. So western electronics and mating weapons are not such a big issue. However, the biggest headache has been a high thrust light weight engine. between now and 2028 a lot can happen. Maybe a better Russian engine...

I see your points.
It's possible in theory.

I doubt PAF and CAC would allocate resources for it though. If you consider the timeline you mentioned almost completely overlaps with project AZM.
I even suspect there are already considerable portion of resources(especially top engineers) moved to AZM which explains whey BLK 3 is not moving as fast as many people predicted.

 

[araz]

The event horizon is six year from now. If you recall, Block II was supposed to have western electronics. And, I am guessing here, that JFT with western electronics were offered for export. So western electronics and mating weapons are not such a big issue. However, the biggest headache has been a high thrust light weight engine. between now and 2028 a lot can happen. Maybe a better Russian engine...

If things work out the Turks might be able to sell us the EJ200 series and that would be a nice engine to have. However, by that time the Chinese engines will be online and reliable so the red bear will come out with a good offer for an engine. This is big business, the demand is high so who so ever hands out the best goodies will win the contract.
A

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I see your points.
It's possible in theory.

I doubt PAF and CAC would allocate resources for it though. If you consider the timeline you mentioned almost completely overlaps with project AZM.
I even suspect there are already considerable portion of resources(especially top engineers) moved to AZM which explains whey BLK 3 is not moving as fast as many people predicted.

If project AZM is a fifth gen fighter plane then it will take a lot more time than eight years to materialize. That is my hunch based upon the slow down of even Proj. AZMs' allocated funds.

In the end it will be more cost effective to work on enhancing the capabilities of an already proven design and air frame. But this is my opinion.