JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[ALPHYN]

Klj7A will be liquid cooled. There is error commited by alan warnes in the article.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Hi,

A test aircraft must be produced with all western avionics and then tested against the chinese package---

But the problem BVR AAMs. What Western BVR AAM is available to Western Thunder Blk3 as compared to PL15 on Chineese Thunder Blk 3?

 

[aliyusuf]

That article is referring to the LKF601E (before it was given the name). Until now, NRIET was just showing the KLJ-7A as-is (liquid cooled), but at some point, offered the PAF an air cooled version. Let's hope they changed the TRMs from GaA to GaN too (fully optimize it for light weight and compact internal space).

Klj7A will be liquid cooled. There is error commited by alan warnes in the article.

The issue to think of is that since the KLJ-7A was introduced in 2015-16 ... it has been over 4 years. Without being inducted on any production version fighter till date. It is possible that work continued on improving it and tailoring it according to PAF needs ... during that period.

I have heard Air Commodore. (R) Sajjad Haider say on air that from now on PAF will enjoy first shoot capability over IAF even with their having Rafale.

I have also read Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail's tweet that Block-III will be at par with the Rafale in AA exchanges.

So I am at ease with a feeling that at least over Pakistani skies ... the Block-III will not be at a dis-advantage vis-a-vis the IAF Rafale.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The issue to think of is that since the KLJ-7A was introduced in 2015-16 ... it has been over 4 years. Without being inducted on any production version fighter till date. It is possible that work continued on improving it and tailoring it according to PAF needs ... during that period.

I have heard Air Commodore. (R) Sajjad Haider say on air that from now on PAF will enjoy first shoot capability over IAF even with their having Rafale.

I have also read Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail's tweet that Block-III will be at par with the Rafale in AA exchanges.

So I am at ease with a feeling that at least over Pakistani skies ... the Block-III will not be at a dis-advantage vis-a-vis the IAF Rafale.

So KLJ7A=>RBE 2? Blk3 EW=>Spectra? PL15=>Meteor?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

The issue to think of is that since the KLJ-7A was introduced in 2015-16 ... it has been over 4 years. Without being inducted on any production version fighter till date. It is possible that work continued on improving it and tailoring it according to PAF needs ... during that period.

I have heard Air Commodore. (R) Sajjad Haider say on air that from now on PAF will enjoy first shoot capability over IAF even with their having Rafale.

I have also read Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail's tweet that Block-III will be at par with the Rafale in AA exchanges.

So I am at ease with a feeling that at least over Pakistani skies ... the Block-III will not be at a dis-advantage vis-a-vis the IAF Rafale.

Can you give me that tweet???

 

[StormBreaker]

So KLJ7A=>RBE 2? Blk3 EW=>Spectra? PL15=>Meteor?

Oh brother,

You are quite a concerned person, just like @seven0seven , “Har waqt tension mein rehna”, Spectra and all, these matter less in actual air combat scenario where our adversary pilots are untrained in this field, and when in air, heading for combat, their hearts are pumped up, adrenaline rush, fear all over, can you use these features to their potential in such a human state ?

Air combat has luck play more than all this stuff, I certainly believe and trust that at least the radar would be something better than Rafale’s Radar, or something on par, China has experience of J-20s radar ( RBE 2 is a kid in front of that), can’t say for EW systems, especially since PAF has been tilting towards Turkish EW systems for air and naval warfare for some time, but a major upgrade of Block 3 includes EW system as well, so don’t expect less. As for PL-15, you know it better.

 

[aliyusuf]

Can you give me that tweet???

Someone posted that tweet on this forum.

So KLJ7A=>RBE 2? Blk3 EW=>Spectra? PL15=>Meteor?

Don't need to have KLJ-7A >= RBE 2 AESA (Comparable is good enough)
I believe PL-15 is going to be revelation.
Blk3 EW>= Spectra ... again only need to be comparable

It is never isolated asset vs asset. It is one fighting forces assets + ancillary equipment + training + caliber to the same of the other ... and that too over Pakistani skies ... I am not worried. You can disagree ... but that is my opinion.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Someone posted that tweet on this forum.

About when???

 

[aliyusuf]

About when???

After 27th Feb I think.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I hate talking about the Rafale in a JF17 thread.. but, here goes.....

France has done a good piece of PR with the Rafale EW system by giving it a unique name and identity called Spectra thereby seeming to give it mythical capabilities. Libya was/is not a good example of how Rafale will fair in any PAF/IAF environment, so lets put that one to bed. Think of Spectra as an integrated DFRM/EW Sensor suite/receiver setup and you can see that most people by now have replicated its functionality. "Spectra" has been around for a while and its secrets are fairly well understood in the defence community... I firmly believe that the JF17 Block III will have EW capabilities on par with the Rafales Spectra......

At this time, China is throwing alot lot more money and a lot lot more scientists at EW than France is, and i can actually see China having already surpassed French EW capabilities and are now almost reaching parity with the USA. The problem France has, she is thinly spread as she is trying to do everything and she does not have the customer anymore to support her industries and therefore can spend less and less on R&D. Its a cyclical thing, and the IAF order was the last magical roll of the dice for the Rafale/France. Their stealth lead platform is on a road to no where when the Germans pullout ...

Don't forget, the king of the hill for military EW capabilities is the USA given its technical depth. China is second. The rest is up for grabs ...

China's aviation military technology has suprassed Frances. Be under no illusion about that, and China is now sharing some of her secrets with Pakistan, which of course is good for PAF and bad for IAF.

The real question is, can Indian industries reach Chinas level of scientific progress that will be reflected in her military capabilities, we all know the answer.. Spoiler alert.. the answer is NO !!!

 

[StormBreaker]

I hate talking about the Rafale in a JF17 thread.. but, here goes.....

France has done a good piece of PR with the Rafale EW system by giving it a unique name and identity called Spectra thereby seeming to give it mythical capabilities. Libya was/is not a good example of how Rafale will fair in any PAF/IAF environment, so lets put that one to bed. Think of Spectra as an integrated DFRM/EW Sensor suite/receiver setup and you can see that most people by now have replicated its functionality. "Spectra" has been around for a while and its secrets are fairly well understood in the defence community... I firmly believe that the JF17 Block III will have EW capabilities on par with the Rafales Spectra......

At this time, China is throwing alot lot more money and a lot lot more scientists at EW than France is, and i can actually see China having already surpassed French EW capabilities and are now almost reaching parity with the USA. The problem France has, she is thinly spread as she is trying to do everything and she does not have the customer anymore to support her industries and therefore can spend less and less on R&D. Its a cyclical thing, and the IAF order was the last magical roll of the dice for the Rafale/France. Their stealth lead platform is on a road to no where when the Germans pullout ...

Don't forget, the king of the hill for military EW capabilities is the USA given its technical depth. China is second. The rest is up for grabs ...

China's aviation military technology has suprassed Frances. Be under no illusion about that, and China is now sharing some of her secrets with Pakistan, which of course is good for PAF and bad for IAF.

The real question is, can Indian industries reach Chinas level of scientific progress that will be reflected in her military capabilities, we all know the answer.. Spoiler alert.. the answer is NO !!!

Very rightly said, sorry for the following off topic example mods,
But, buy a zinger burger for PKR 200 and buy a renamed same zinger burger as “ZINGA FEST” for 600, naming does have an impact on people’s perceptions.

 

[khanasifm]

Hopefully spec for block 3 will come available I mean in terms of load improvements especially if wingtip has now capability to carry heavier sd-10 and if two under intake pylons were added or just single

Two would mean both ldp and jammer can be carried w/o sacrificing other pylons

Lastly internal fuel capacity increase the most critical, read an article on old mig-29 which specified early mig low internal fuel with 100/200kg consumed in takeoff by two engines leaving xxxx kg for mission and at least 2/300 kg unusable fuel in tanks for fuel pressure so Even thrust to weight ratio at take off os low after take off You are in better ratio due to afteron burner takeoff

Anyway expecting 200-400 kg of additional internal fuel in block 3 which may have normal tanks like block 1/2 plus additional tanks like B model
Bring internal fuel to 2500-2800 kg internal fuel this would require just one CEnterline drop tank to give good range for a2g role plus carry sd-10 and pl5 with a2g load

Time will tell

 

[StormBreaker]

Hopefully spec for block 3 will come available I mean in terms of load improvements especially if wingtip has now capability to carry heavier sd-10 and if two under intake pylons were added or just single

Two would mean both ldp and jammer can be carried w/o sacrificing other pylons

Lastly internal fuel capacity increase the most critical, read an article on old mig-29 which specified early mig low internal fuel with 100/200kg consumed in takeoff by two engines leaving xxxx kg for mission and at least 2/300 kg unusable fuel in tanks for fuel pressure so Even thrust to weight ratio at take off os low after take off You are in better ratio due to afteron burner takeoff

Anyway expecting 200-400 kg of additional internal fuel in block 3 which may have normal tanks like block 1/2 plus additional tanks like B model
Bring internal fuel to 2500-2800 kg internal fuel this would require just one CEnterline drop tank to give good range for a2g role plus carry sd-10 and pl5 with a2g load

Time will tell

If range has some significant increase, we can expect to see PN also ordering some.

If not PN but There will be Block 3s flying over karachi.

 

[Aryeih Leib]

First of all, the selling point of the LKF601E radar developed by Wuxi 607 is "the world's first air-cooled active phased array radar". At the 2018 Zhuhai Air Show, AVIC Group demonstrated the model of this radar for the first time in the exhibition hall.

From the appearance of the model, the number of T / R originals of this radar may be close to that of the French "Gust" RBE-2 radar, about 800, and the output power of its T / R originals may also be somewhat Limit to reduce heat.
The author went through some papers, and can find many design schemes of air-cooled phased array antennas, but most of them are large-scale antennas for ground use, because air-cooling has certain requirements on antenna size and thickness. For the solution of airborne active array antenna cooling, I also saw several related articles. It should be said that basically it is necessary to cooperate with measures such as reducing output power and reducing T / R element density to ensure the normal operation of the radar.
In addition, the air-cooled radar has a problem that is not easy to solve, that is, as the altitude rises, the air density becomes thinner, which causes its heat dissipation capacity to decrease sharply.
According to relevant empirical values, at an altitude of 35,000 feet, the air flow of the air-cooled system will be reduced to 40% of the sea level.

Therefore, active phased array radars that require high heat dissipation use liquid cooling on most modern fighters.
We know that Pakistan is a country with a high average altitude, especially the Indian-Pakistani border area is a world-famous alpine mountain. This is an additional burden for air-cooled radar, and it may be necessary to further reduce power or limit use time. .
Compared with the LKF601E, the KLJ-7A radar uses a design scheme similar to the APG-81 on the US F-16V fighter, that is, the antenna itself is water-cooled, and then the existing air-cooling device on the fighter is used to cool the water-cooling system. Of heat. The design of this water-cooled antenna + air-cooled system is less expensive than a comprehensive redesign of the front fuselage and an increase in heat dissipation.



https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Y3z1Ev1RhEswHmjOytznpQ

 

[StormBreaker]

In addition, the air-cooled radar has a problem that is not easy to solve, that is, as the altitude rises, the air density becomes thinner, which causes its heat dissipation capacity to decrease sharply.
According to relevant empirical values, at an altitude of 35,000 feet, the air flow of the air-cooled system will be reduced to 40% of the sea level.

Hence why GaN proves useful in this scenario, i hope the radar selected incorporates GaN tech.