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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

I think u understand my point that military officers should not be in charge of scientists when they have no idea what the science is about. The fool in charge will stifle progress due to his personal limitations
A very interesting debate. We have done well in certain sectors like AWC. The problem remains lack of clarity over who is doing what and appreciation of work. With the rigid structure brilliant minds get discouraged as their ideas are not understood or there is lack of funding. Even if they do come up with something it gets shoved aside due to prejudice or greed for commission or simply lack of funds. There is a point to be made in freeing up these institutions but in our society the lack of discipline may well mean ruin in case of bringing it under civilian rule.
A
 
A very interesting debate. We have done well in certain sectors like AWC. The problem remains lack of clarity over who is doing what and appreciation of work. With the rigid structure brilliant minds get discouraged as their ideas are not understood or there is lack of funding. Even if they do come up with something it gets shoved aside due to prejudice or greed for commission or simply lack of funds. There is a point to be made in freeing up these institutions but in our society the lack of discipline may well mean ruin in case of bringing it under civilian rule.
A
Very true...
Back in the 90s..myself and friend who worked at Farnborough presented an idea at pakistan high commission London. We were asked to go to Pakistan immediately
When we started talking money the army major replied it will be agood exercise for you to help the country.
We both laughed and thanked him for his time.
Dumb as they come
 
looking back,
AWC Kamra and PAF would be wishing they had more material engineers.
more metallurgists

Things change so much and so fast, once you start working with the right materials.
Sorry, whats the context here? Or just a general observation...
 
That makes sense
Look ask yourself who joins the military ?
It's people who were at the bottom of the merit in FSC/FA.
Kakool can train them to behave to a certain extent, but the fact that they don't have a scientific mind can't be changed.

Now I personally know some brilliant doctors whom I have the pleasure of working with.
One of them i well known to all, the rest you may not know.

But by in large, R&D, product development is not suited to military in her present form and structure.

I think u understand my point that military officers should not be in charge of scientists when they have no idea what the science is about. The fool in charge will stifle progress due to his personal limitations

A very interesting debate. We have done well in certain sectors like AWC. The problem remains lack of clarity over who is doing what and appreciation of work. With the rigid structure brilliant minds get discouraged as their ideas are not understood or there is lack of funding. Even if they do come up with something it gets shoved aside due to prejudice or greed for commission or simply lack of funds. There is a point to be made in freeing up these institutions but in our society the lack of discipline may well mean ruin in case of bringing it under civilian rule.
A
The root issue isn't that it's the military is in charge of these departments, but that people who aren't qualified and experienced are heading them up. So, in most cases, the generals or other officers who get parachuted into leading orgs aren't familiar with the org's work, culture, team, or vision. In the best-case scenario, they come in, sit and watch, and in the worst-case scenario they drive the real talent out of the org and, eventually, the country.

In theory, the military can run these orgs, but only if they structure leadership the right way. In my opinion, that way is to delegate to the experts.

So, basically, the military leadership sits in a 'Board of Directors' type setup. In turn, the Board nominates high-performing experts from within the org to lead the organization and provides them KPIs, such as X% revenue growth, Y% savings, #Z of new IP, etc. From there, the internal executives carry out their work with the necessary freedom to achieve those KPIs.

It's a tried-and-true concept that drives the world's top corporations. In fact, Turkey is using a similar model to support its state-owned enterprises (SOE). In the end, the main 'backer' of TAI, Aselsan, etc, is the Turkish Armed Forces' Pension Fund. Whatever profit TAI et.al create ultimately goes back to the benefit of the retired and serving personnel. I imagine the Board, i.e., Turkish generals, get bonuses if they oversee a successful quarter or fiscal year too.

Yes, the above model isn't perfect. It's heavily privilege-laden (i.e., why do military officers get to benefit from something the country funds). Fair. But at least from a "macro" standpoint, we can see TAI et. al progress from a technology and efficiency standpoint. We can at least see TAI et. al encourage wider economic activity, especially in the private sector (which benefits from a growing line of subcontracting deals, collaborative partnerships, etc). So, even in this 'privilege' model, we see that Turks outside of the "military class" get to benefit in terms of jobs, chances to create their own businesses that can get TAI et.al contracts, etc.

So, if we applied the 'Turkish model' in PAC, we'd see the PAF set up a Board of several serving and retired AVMs and AMs. That Board will decide on KPIs based on AHQ's requirements. They will then hire aerospace and defence engineers, business managers, marketers, financial guys, etc. This new delegated executive team will then work to achieve those KPIs. In turn, we'd prob see a lot of fat-trimming, a big focus on sub-contracting low-grade, labor-intensive work to the private sector, a stronger emphasis on R&D and IP-generation with long-term projects, etc, etc.

The problem with Pakistani generals is that they have a real bad case of 'desi uncle-messiah syndrome.' They can't and won't delegate to others. Despite the fact that there are millions of civilian Pakistani experts in a huge range of fields (a big % being of military lineage), generals will not lean on them and will insist to manage these orgs themselves.

This tells me that it isn't 'privilege' or 'discrimination' driving the thought of our generals. If it was only discrimination, then at least civilians who are the children of retired officers would be asked to lead said orgs. But we don't even get that. What's driving our generals' thinking is just some irrational mental block. It's just stupidity.
 
The root issue isn't that it's the military is in charge of these departments, but that people who aren't qualified and experienced are heading them up. So, in most cases, the generals or other officers who get parachuted into leading orgs aren't familiar with the org's work, culture, team, or vision. In the best-case scenario, they come in, sit and watch, and in the worst-case scenario they drive the real talent out of the org and, eventually, the country.

In theory, the military can run these orgs, but only if they structure leadership the right way. In my opinion, that way is to delegate to the experts.

So, basically, the military leadership sits in a 'Board of Directors' type setup. In turn, the Board nominates high-performing experts from within the org to lead the organization and provides them KPIs, such as X% revenue growth, Y% savings, #Z of new IP, etc. From there, the internal executives carry out their work with the necessary freedom to achieve those KPIs.

It's a tried-and-true concept that drives the world's top corporations. In fact, Turkey is using a similar model to support its state-owned enterprises (SOE). In the end, the main 'backer' of TAI, Aselsan, etc, is the Turkish Armed Forces' Pension Fund. Whatever profit TAI et.al create ultimately goes back to the benefit of the retired and serving personnel. I imagine the Board, i.e., Turkish generals, get bonuses if they oversee a successful quarter or fiscal year too.

Yes, the above model isn't perfect. It's heavily privilege-laden (i.e., why do military officers get to benefit from something the country funds). Fair. But at least from a "macro" standpoint, we can see TAI et. al progress from a technology and efficiency standpoint. We can at least see TAI et. al encourage wider economic activity, especially in the private sector (which benefits from a growing line of subcontracting deals, collaborative partnerships, etc). So, even in this 'privilege' model, we see that Turks outside of the "military class" get to benefit in terms of jobs, chances to create their own businesses that can get TAI et.al contracts, etc.

The problem with Pakistani generals is that they have a real bad case of 'desi uncle-messiah syndrome.' They can't and won't delegate to others. Despite the fact that there are millions of civilian Pakistani experts in a huge range of fields (a big % being of military lineage), generals will not lean on them and will insist to manage these orgs themselves.

This tells me that it isn't 'privilege' or 'discrimination' driving the thought of our generals. If it was only discrimination, then at least civilians who are the children of retired officers would be asked to lead said orgs. But we don't even get that. What's driving our generals' thinking is just some irrational mental block. It's just stupidity.
It is discriminatory in the sense the bold think they are “gods gift to earth” and the only ones both qualified to lead and benefit from such organizations
 
It is discriminatory in the sense the bold think they are “gods gift to earth” and the only ones both qualified to lead and benefit from such organizations
Exactly. This goes well beyond 'privilege.' If it was only privilege for military people, they'd at least give the work to the children of retired officers. That'd make some sense and, ironically, drive a lot more progress because those children are educated, qualified, experienced, and connected (with overseas companies, etc). But when you drive out your "own" people because of a heavily individualized sense of self-worth, then we got some mental disorder-type issues at play.

The US is a very hierarchical society too. It's not a 'fair' playground by any stretch, yet there's a strong culture of results-oriented delegating and managing. The 1% know that they're not the best people for every single type of job, so they take a back seat and let the skilled, qualified, talented, etc, shine through while they collect the cheques. In Pakistan, the generals also want to shine through, they can't be happy with just collecting the cheque nor do they want a bigger cheque if it meant sharing the spotlight.

Relatively speaking, we tend to know more about our individual generals than Indians probably do about the biggest board members in Tata, Reliance, HCL, etc. That tells us everything about the organizational culture between a more market-oriented country and a Socialism-for-the-Elite state like Pakistan @JamD
 
The root issue isn't that it's the military is in charge of these departments, but that people who aren't qualified and experienced are heading them up. So, in most cases, the generals or other officers who get parachuted into leading orgs aren't familiar with the org's work, culture, team, or vision. In the best-case scenario, they come in, sit and watch, and in the worst-case scenario they drive the real talent out of the org and, eventually, the country.

In theory, the military can run these orgs, but only if they structure leadership the right way. In my opinion, that way is to delegate to the experts.

So, basically, the military leadership sits in a 'Board of Directors' type setup. In turn, the Board nominates high-performing experts from within the org to lead the organization and provides them KPIs, such as X% revenue growth, Y% savings, #Z of new IP, etc. From there, the internal executives carry out their work with the necessary freedom to achieve those KPIs.

It's a tried-and-true concept that drives the world's top corporations. In fact, Turkey is using a similar model to support its state-owned enterprises (SOE). In the end, the main 'backer' of TAI, Aselsan, etc, is the Turkish Armed Forces' Pension Fund. Whatever profit TAI et.al create ultimately goes back to the benefit of the retired and serving personnel. I imagine the Board, i.e., Turkish generals, get bonuses if they oversee a successful quarter or fiscal year too.

Yes, the above model isn't perfect. It's heavily privilege-laden (i.e., why do military officers get to benefit from something the country funds). Fair. But at least from a "macro" standpoint, we can see TAI et. al progress from a technology and efficiency standpoint. We can at least see TAI et. al encourage wider economic activity, especially in the private sector (which benefits from a growing line of subcontracting deals, collaborative partnerships, etc). So, even in this 'privilege' model, we see that Turks outside of the "military class" get to benefit in terms of jobs, chances to create their own businesses that can get TAI et.al contracts, etc.

The problem with Pakistani generals is that they have a real bad case of 'desi uncle-messiah syndrome.' They can't and won't delegate to others. Despite the fact that there are millions of civilian Pakistani experts in a huge range of fields (a big % being of military lineage), generals will not lean on them and will insist to manage these orgs themselves.

This tells me that it isn't 'privilege' or 'discrimination' driving the thought of our generals. If it was only discrimination, then at least civilians who are the children of retired officers would be asked to lead said orgs. But we don't even get that. What's driving our generals' thinking is just some irrational mental block. It's just stupidity.
Pakistan needs a TAI like institution where talented army officers go for research rather than vice versa... Moreover we need the private sector to enter into the defense industry.... Let them have a whiff of that money and they will forget everything else...
Your point about mental block might be because of trust issues....
There is also the issue of deadlines... We hit a hurdle... We get a ToT and forget about it... Unlike some fields like radars which Pakistan is doing good at ( due to outsourcing of work to Unis...)
 
Pakistan needs a TAI like institution where talented army officers go for research rather than vice versa... Moreover we need the private sector to enter into the defense industry.... Let them have a whiff of that money and they will forget everything else...
Your point about mental block might be because of trust issues....
There is also the issue of deadlines... We hit a hurdle... We get a ToT and forget about it... Unlike some fields like radars which Pakistan is doing good at ( due to outsourcing of work to Unis...)
Yep. There are also ways to 'merge' the military into R&D. For example, you can create a sub-stream in the military academies geared for lifelong R&D.

You can recruit kids with really high acumen for technology, research, etc, and shape them into R&D Officers. So, for 2/3 of the year, they study their STEM program, and for 1/3 of the year they do their military training. They graduate as officers, but get sent to an R&D bureau headed by a R&D general and progress vertically through that structure.

However, even then, you'd have to very careful to ensure you're creating the right "balance" in culture. R&D isn't restrictive or silo'ed; it's collaborative and very inquisitive by nature. So, these officers aren't going to be like the guys in the LoC or FATA. They're not going to 'gel' with those operationally-driven officers and generals.

But at the same time, the officers who emerge from the R&D class could head up top classified programs across our nuclear, strategic weapon systems, cybersecurity, etc fields.
 
Frankly this is one of the grave danger to our society ie worshipping the personalities, per say Bajwa, Imran, Nawaz, zardari...this is a sickness which our so called leaders make full use of it.. PPP, N league will name every thing on Benazir, zardari, Bilawal, Nawaz, Maryam even military follows the suit.. This is beyond ridiculous. It is weakening the system day by day which will ultimately result in disintegration of our already highly polarized society..

Well, to be frank, our history was always predominantly individual based. Take example of the rulers/generals we aim for, Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H, Hazrat Abubaqar, Hazrat Umar, Usman and Ali R.A. then Khalid bin Waleed, Salahudin Ayubi, Noorud din zangi.

We always wanted personality figures as our rulers and generals. You will still see pictures of Zia, Raheel Sharif on vehicles on road.
 
Well, to be frank, our history was always predominantly individual based. Take example of the rulers/generals we aim for, Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H, Hazrat Abubaqar, Hazrat Umar, Usman and Ali R.A. then Khalid bin Waleed, Salahudin Ayubi, Noorud din zangi.

We always wanted personality figures as our rulers and generals. You will still see pictures of Zia, Raheel Sharif on vehicles on road.

It's not just our society, it's human nature.
Nations are inspired and led by individuals, not committees.

This has been true throughout history: Lincoln, Churchill, De Gaul, Mao, Lee Kuan Yew, ...
 
The root issue isn't that it's the military is in charge of these departments, but that people who aren't qualified and experienced are heading them up. So, in most cases, the generals or other officers who get parachuted into leading orgs aren't familiar with the org's work, culture, team, or vision. In the best-case scenario, they come in, sit and watch, and in the worst-case scenario they drive the real talent out of the org and, eventually, the country.

The problem with Pakistani generals is that they have a real bad case of 'desi uncle-messiah syndrome.' They can't and won't delegate to others. Despite the fact that there are millions of civilian Pakistani experts in a huge range of fields (a big % being of military lineage), generals will not lean on them and will insist to manage these orgs themselves.

This tells me that it isn't 'privilege' or 'discrimination' driving the thought of our generals. If it was only discrimination, then at least civilians who are the children of retired officers would be asked to lead said orgs. But we don't even get that. What's driving our generals' thinking is just some irrational mental block. It's just stupidity.

Actually you started your post with exactly the right idea. The problem is that UNQUALIFIED and INCOMPETENT military people are heading organizations or put in leadership roles. And the problem with them is that they are extremely threatened by anyone with talent/ideas. Case in point what happened to the head of Azm - a PAF guy, who with his faults was a technically competent person, and was moved to an administrative job by superiors that felt threatened, and then left the service. You're right that it's not discrimination - that wouldn't explain it. It's insecurity.

Also I think we've derailed the thread lol.

I think PAF is not doing anything official because of the generally negative perception of the armed forces these days and the bad economy. I mean, as long as they are building capability, who care if there's a reveal ceremony or not. Clearly, work is being done.
 
That makes sense
Look ask yourself who joins the military ?
It's people who were at the bottom of the merit in FSC/FA.

Kakool can train them to behave to a certain extent, but the fact that they don't have a scientific mind can't be changed.

Now I personally know some brilliant doctors whom I have the pleasure of working with.
One of them i well known to all, the rest you may not know.

But by in large, R&D, product development is not suited to military in her present form and structure.
Hi,

That is done BY DEFAULT all over the world militaries. Even in the US---the military only wants smart people in certain wings of the military but not as a foot soldier or a general duty officer
 
Greetings to all.
First of all I apologize if this is not the right place for the following.
I wanted to ask two questions to the distinguished participants of this space, which are related to the engine plant of the JF-17.
- What happened to Pakistan's idea of purchasing engines directly from Russia without re-exporting them from China?
- What level of maintenance is performed on the engines in Pakistan? Is Russian intervention still required to maintain the RD-93?
 

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