JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[krash]

a higher thrust engine would consume more fuel and reduce the range of an already short legged plane even further.

It's a little bit more complicated than that.

Firstly, the consumption can be controlled by applying lesser thrust when higher thrust is not needed. Sort of like what airliners do, they never fly at max speeds/thrust unless need be. They usually fly at speeds that are most economical for fuel consumption. If the JF-17 is currently applying x kN for cruising, it would still apply only x kN for cruising after the engine is upgraded. You want that extra bit of thrust so that when you do need it you aren't left hanging, especially when it's a kill or be killed situation.

Secondly, when thrust is increased on an engine it is usually safe to assume that both dry and wet thrust ratings are increased. This means that for a range of thrust values the aircraft will now consume less fuel as compared to before. For example, according to Wikipedia the RD-93 has a dry thrust rating of 50 kN and a wet thrust rating of 81.3 kN. Right now if the pilot were to apply 60 kN of thrust (or any other amount beyond 50 kN) the afterburners would kick in causing the fuel consumption to go through the roof. If the dry thrust of the engine were to be increased from 50 kN to, say, 65 kN then applying 60 kN of thrust, when need be, would not engage the afterburners and the fuel consumption would be a lot more affordable. This would be true with the entire thrust range from 50 kN to 65 kN. In fact, the increase in max dry thrust will most likely increase the max wet thrust as well, which in turn should result in lesser fuel consumption, compared to before, from 65 kN till 81.3 kN as well, only less dramatically.

 

[aliyusuf]

This reminded me of these pics

View attachment 594202 View attachment 594203
View attachment 594204

@The Eagle @HRK @Starlord @aliyusuf

The first pic is from some expo in China, latter from a PAC video.

Patience is the key. We need to wait till information is released. Only that would be authentic.

We can make castles and even entire kingdoms in thin air, but that won't mean a thing if it does not match with reality. At this point the reality is obfuscated for us. Conjecture won't get us closer to the real thing anymore than we already have.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Rafeh]

Pakistan can certainly make JF- 17 stealthier to quite a degree without that much effort, provided Chinese are willing to cooperate.

For example it shouldn’t take too long to shape the front fuselage section that houses radars etc. I mean they’re going to study radome and radar electromagnetic interactions anyway (within the front fuselage area) why not study the effects of shaping and material selection after some stealth optimization is done (to reduce RCS). That should not take more than a few weeks provided one has high performance computing facilities available.

Furthermore with some effort they can definitely flatten as much as possible the entire fuselage at the bottom of the aircraft. With small concurrent changes in the wings as well as flight control laws one can compensate for the aerodynamic performance changes due to flat underside. The flattened underside should reduce both the specular returns as well as reflected radar wave side lobes say due to things such as discontinuities caused by changes in material, geometry, and dielectric properties etc (assuming these discontinuities on the flat underside are aligned properly).

At least we can control the reflected shape and form of these side lobes in a way that makes aircraft very low observable from say head on RCS point of view etc.

If not the flat underside then at least one should position the external weapons in such a way so as to cause fuselage and weapon scattering interaction that minimize the radar return as much as possible. One can study such arrangements and find an optimal compromise between center of gravity, aerodynamics and electromagnetic return that minimizes RCS without compromising stability and dynamics of the aircraft. This way on our way to the enemy with weapons load, at least RCS are low.

Furthermore, composite materials along and near the edges for example can be designed in a way so as to have optimal induced current distributions so that radar returns due to edge diffraction are significantly minimized.

This shouldn’t take too much effort since Chengdu already has extensive experience in related composite materials and associated dielectric materials and coatings.

Furthermore quite lightweight and high performance 3D nano particle-based coatings are available that dissipate incident radar waves. These radar absorbing materials are now widely known and even commercially available. That should reduce aircraft RCS further.

I have no idea how much it would increase cost since that depends on Chinese and Chengdu manufacturing set up. Though it would mean more extensive testing to verify and validate both aerodynamic and electromagnetic scattering performance. Which would be done anyway since its required for any military aircraft.

Since India is getting quite capable air to air missiles, I think it’s worth the effort. Note I have no idea whether Pakistani Air Force has done such a thing or not.

I’m just giving an opinion and hoping that these and other small but very significant changes (except perhaps the flat underside) have been introduced into the block three so that JF-17 has enhance survivability.

Even when these changes are introduced, it is very unlikely that Pakistani Air Force will talk about any specifics. In fact PAF will not even mention this. This is because Pakistan would want to keep it a secret as much as possible so as not to motivate india so much that they start trying to profile the electromagnetic scattering behavior of block three using AWACS and border area radars at a consider able risk (e.g. to Indian awacs).

The point is: Changes that would make JF-17 Stealthier won't be visible to us (except perhaps a more flattened underside if done at all). Rest of changes would be only visible to to PAF. Kind of ironic.

 

[StormBreaker]

Bhai don't throw or break , mujh Gareeb ko de dena , Allah Sawab de ga , aur mai tere Phone ke sath selfie le ker yaha share ker dun ga haha

PTA approve karwalena bas...

Pakistan can certainly make JF- 17 stealthier to quite a degree without that much effort, provided Chinese are willing to cooperate.

For example it shouldn’t take too long to shape the front fuselage section that houses radars etc. I mean they’re going to study radome and radar electromagnetic interactions anyway (within the front fuselage area) why not study the effects of shaping and material selection after some stealth optimization is done (to reduce RCS). That should not take more than a few weeks provided one has high performance computing facilities available.

Furthermore with some effort they can definitely flatten as much as possible the entire fuselage at the bottom of the aircraft. With small concurrent changes in the wings as well as flight control laws one can compensate for the aerodynamic behavioral changes due to flat underside. The flattened underside should reduce both the specular returns as well as side lobes say due to things such as discontinuities due to sudden changes in material, geometry, and dielectric properties etc.

At least we can control the reflected shape and form of these side lobes in a way that makes aircraft very low observable from say head on etc.

If not the flat underside then at least one should position the external weapons in such a way so as to cause fuselage and weapon scattering interaction that minimize the radar return as much as possible. One can study such arrangements and find an optimal compromise between center of gravity, aerodynamics and electromagnetic return that minimizes RCS without compromising stability and dynamics of the aircraft. This way on our way to the enemy with weapons load, at least RCS are low.

Furthermore, composite materials along and near the edges for example can be designed in a way so as to have optimal current gradients (due to incident radar waves) so that radar returns due to edge diffractions are significantly minimized.

This shouldn’t take too much effort since Chengdu already has extensive experience in related composite materials and associated dielectric materials and coatings.

Furthermore quite lightweight and high performance 3D nano particle-based coatings are available that dissipate incident radar waves. These radar absorbing materials are now widely known and even commercially available. That should reduce aircraft RCS we will further.

I have no idea how much it would increase cost since that depends on Chinese and Chengdu manufacturing set up. Though it would mean more extensive testing to verify and validate both aerodynamic and electromagnetic scattering performance. Which would be done anyway since its required for any military aircraft.

Since India is getting quite capable air to air missiles, I think it’s worth the effort. Note I have no idea whether Pakistani Air Force has done such a thing or not.

I’m just giving an opinion and hoping that these small but very significant changes (except perhaps the flat underside) have been introduced into the block three so that JF-17 has enhance survivability.

Even when these changes are introduced, t is very unlikely that Pakistani Air Force will talk about any specifics. In fact PAF will not even mention this. This is because Pakistan would want to keep it a secret as much as possible so as not to motivate india so much that they start trying to profile the electromagnetic scattering behavior of block three using AWACS and border area radars at a consider able risk (e.g. to Indian awacs).

The point is: Changes that would make JF-17 Stealthier won't be visible to us (except perhaps a more flattened underside if done at all). Rest of changes would be only visible to to PAF. Kind of ironic.

Some quwa material for you @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
BTW, i would like to add my small bit. JF-17 has a highly modular design thanks to the presence of a plane straight fuselage and nose.

This design can take 3-4 time on table to produce a true 5th gen design

Something like this light weight single engine 5th gen fighter proposal

https://www.defensenews.com/digital...ostec-to-co-develop-5th-gen-fighter-with-uae/

 

[Rafeh]

.

BTW, i would like to add my small bit. JF-17 has a highly modular design thanks to the presence of a plane straight fuselage and nose.

That's true. A modular designed is always helpful specially when redesigning something already made.

 

[The Eagle]

This reminded me of these pics

View attachment 594202 View attachment 594203
View attachment 594204

@The Eagle @HRK @Starlord @aliyusuf

The first pic is from some expo in China, latter from a PAC video.

Fan Art with 3 models.

 

[messiach]

regensberg.

Are you really in Germany? Where are you? ... or did I miss that sarcasm again?

 

[araz]

A,
I'm thoroughly disappointed that in order to make your point - you choose to quote just me (specifically) where others had been doing so in the past & after.

If you were to use words like 'Guys' & 'general', you could/should have mentioned a few names of other members and/or just highlight in red/bold like some do in order to get the message through.

I nearly got into a war of words with someone (recently), but choose to back off for the very purpose as I realized that Rules are set for some & broken by certain.

Anyways, since you choose to just quote me - I will (atleast) adhere to the rules. I'm just going sit back and see how many 'Senior' members do the same.
-T23

My sincerest apologies. It was indeed a general message and not particularly intended for you. I intend no disrespect to anyone. So apologies once again.
A

 

[Ali_Baba]

Lack of any prototype pictures confirms that the news is false. If you consider the leaks around the first flight of the Y20 and J20, you know there is no way CATIC will be able to keep Block III hidden from view if it has been test flying. You only have to see how many new build J20 pictures in their primer we see to know that this news has to be false.

Lets move on people...

 

[CodeforFood]

A,
I'm thoroughly disappointed that in order to make your point - you choose to quote just me (specifically) where others had been doing so in the past & after.

If you were to use words like 'Guys' & 'general', you could/should have mentioned a few names of other members and/or just highlight in red/bold like some do in order to get the message through.

I nearly got into a war of words with someone (recently), but choose to back off for the very purpose as I realized that Rules are set for some & broken by certain.

Anyways, since you choose to just quote me - I will (atleast) adhere to the rules. I'm just going sit back and see how many 'Senior' members do the same.
-T23

yeah its funny this way my post was deleted the other day for adding no value to thread (correctly btw) but the post was replying to still remained which was also not related to the topic at all. i wonder if number of post is criteria for seniority or becoming an admin or being a person who has shown some maturity and impartiality...

 

[PakFactor]

Lack of any prototype pictures confirms that the news is false. If you consider the leaks around the first flight of the Y20 and J20, you know there is no way CATIC will be able to keep Block III hidden from view if it has been test flying. You only have to see how many new build J20 pictures in their primer we see to know that this news has to be false.

Lets move on people...

 

[GriffinsRule]

I all likelihood, no flight has yet taken place. People are just reposting the same fake news over and over again and we think its confirmations from multiple sources. If there was less secrecy around JF-17s first flight, or B models first flight, I dont see why block III would be so special. As for the poster from AMF, it doesnt show anything discernible come to any conclusion, except maybe there are no wingtip hardpoints. Most likely its just a 3D rendering of the existing 1 seater.

 

[FuturePAF]

I all likelihood, no flight has yet taken place. People are just reposting the same fake news over and over again and we think its confirmations from multiple sources. If there was less secrecy around JF-17s first flight, or B models first flight, I dont see why block III would be so special. As for the poster from AMF, it doesnt show anything discernible come to any conclusion, except maybe there are no wingtip hardpoints. Most likely its just a 3D rendering of the existing 1 seater.

View attachment 594251

Considering the anticipation surround the Block III, especially after the February wake up call, IMHO a first flight probably did take place, but there is likely to be a delay until all major modifications are flight tested to a basic level.

This is not unlike the few weeks of delay between March and April 2003 when The original prototype first flew and pictures were not actually released immediately, if I’m not mistaken, there was a delay of a couple of weeks. We may need to wait up to a few weeks until the PAF is satisfied with the new jet, to presented it to the world. PAF/PAC/CAC are trying to win export orders and wouldn’t want a hasty rollout to spoil the years of fine tailoring that has gone into this jet.

In the mean time, new JF-17 DCS videos are coming out daily, and we should enjoy them, while we wait.

 

[Indos]

Considering the anticipation surround the Block III, especially after the February wake up call, IMHO a first flight probably did take place, but there is likely to be a delay until all major modifications are flight tested to a basic level.

This is not unlike the few weeks of delay between March and April 2003 when The original prototype first flew and pictures were not actually released immediately, if I’m not mistaken, there was a delay of a couple of weeks. We may need to wait up to a few weeks until the PAF is satisfied with the new jet, to presented it to the world. PAF/PAC/CAC are trying to win export orders and wouldn’t want a hasty rollout to spoil the years of fine tailoring that has gone into this jet.

In the mean time, new JF-17 DCS videos are coming out daily, and we should enjoy them, while we wait.

Is there any Pakistani here who knows how long JF 17 Block 3 have been developed until this day and also its development cost so far ?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Is there any Pakistani here who knows how long JF 17 Block 3 have been developed until this day and also its development cost so far ?

Everyone here is currently shooting in the dark now.