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JF-17 at Zuhai Air Show 2010

Oh... sure , obviously , say that to the Hawker Hunters taked down by the Israeli Mirages III .... and to all the countries that have bought one of the Mirage V/50 variants. The XXIst' first decade is only a short morose phase for the french industry success story...
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The Mirage is an unprecedented success.. Pakistan should know..we operate the largest fleet after you of Mirage variants..(even if they are older)..
But if the current state of world arms purchases shows anything..
is that when it comes to the Rafale.. NO one is saying viva la france..
It lost in South Korea, It lost in Singapore...it lost in Greece.. it lost in Morocco(they even speak a lot of french..so it clearly wasnt political).
and it will probably lose in India as well.
Clearly.. for all its prowess..something..or someone has messed up with the Rafale.

To nurse your wounds about that though..
It is a popular notion..that if the PAF had enough money...they would have gone for the Rafale.. it was the favorite of Air Requirement planners in the 90's.
 
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The Mirage is an unprecedented success.. Pakistan should know..we operate the largest fleet after you of Mirage variants..(even if they are older)..
But if the current state of world arms purchases shows anything..
is that when it comes to the Rafale.. NO one is saying viva la france..
It lost in South Korea, It lost in Singapore...it lost in Greece.. it lost in Morocco(they even speak a lot of french..so it clearly wasnt political).
and it will probably lose in India as well.
Clearly.. for all its prowess..something..or someone has messed up with the Rafale.

To nurse your wounds about that though..
It is a popular notion..that if the PAF had enough money...they would have gone for the Rafale.. it was the favorite of Air Requirement planners in the 90's.

Not to forget mentioning Brazil and UAE .Brazil is also backing out of Rafale
Also Saudia was interested in Rafales but they were demanding lot of improvements
 
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Not to forget mentioning Brazil and UAE .Brazil is also backing out of Rafale
Also Saudia was interested in Rafales but they were demanding lot of improvements
No boss I've read it their was a thread for Brazil confirmation of procurement of Rafael ... was that wrong ???
 
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I really can't understand what is the 'missing' parts in rafale? Is it capability? or diplomacy? or Too much American pressure?

I dont think performance is one of the major issue. because so far Rafale & EF is the front runners by technical evaulation. IAF admits its very good. then?

It is either competition from USA or higher cost of French systems.
 
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Actually, I read that for the EAU's rafale failure the fact is that with the very warm desertic weather , the two SNECMA M88 engines will incur a decrease of their power.. so the Emirates urged Dassault to find a solution, but this doesn't happen.
 
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Hi,

There is nothing wrong with the rafael----the only problem is with the french themselves---.

They are absolutely arrogant----arrogant people have very poor salesman skills---and that shows all the time in their negotiations.

They donot understand the concept of " foot in the door " mentality.

Pakistan being their top user of the mirage aircraft in numbers, should have been the first priority---the french---if they had any brains to sell would have worked harder.

The problem with french aviation industry is that the rafel being manufactured down to one aircraft a month----the french are losing their trained engineers and techs at a faster rate to other fields---in a few years time----most of the highly trained staff will disappera---and that would be a terrible loss for the french birds of war---hein hein hein.
 
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Actually, I read that for the EAU's rafale failure the fact is that with the very warm desertic weather , the two SNECMA M88 engines will incur a decrease of their power.. so the Emirates urged Dassault to find a solution, but this doesn't happen.

Well...that is something that should not have been overlooked..
However..
singapore is not a desert environment.. nor does it get unbearably hot out there..
Neither is South Korea..
It does have tropical weather to an extent..
But it is surprising that the Dassault did not consider that the Rafale would not be deployed in varying weather overseas..
Is the Rafale M prone to this??


Still
Arguably..
A thunder is not 1/6th of a Rafale..
A well flown thunder..is still a fight for a Rafale..
Somehow this constant painting of the JF-17 as a F-5 class fighter is unusual..

The EVO VIII costs half of a Porsche 911..
yet it can still give a run for its money..
If the revealing videos of the Zhuhai Airshow prove anything..is that we have collectively underestimated the JF-17.
 
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Well...that is something that should not have been overlooked..
However..
singapore is not a desert environment.. nor does it get unbearably hot out there..
Neither is South Korea..
It does have tropical weather to an extent..
But it is surprising that the Dassault did not consider that the Rafale would not be deployed in varying weather overseas..
Is the Rafale M prone to this??


Still
Arguably..
A thunder is not 1/6th of a Rafale..
A well flown thunder..is still a fight for a Rafale..
Somehow this constant painting of the JF-17 as a F-5 class fighter is unusual..

The EVO VIII costs half of a Porsche 911..
yet it can still give a run for its money..
If the revealing videos of the Zhuhai Airshow prove anything..is that we have collectively underestimated the JF-17.

Sir,
This isn't a credible point to shown that Rafael is not a worthy aircraft.
Do you have any credible source or quote to prove your points? or are you a military expert/Engineer to say about every inch by inch of that fighter? Am expecting your reply...
with respect.:)
 
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@santro

I'm posting here a article from Paul betts who has been 'Financial Times' aerospace consultant for 33 years

France’s Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas
By Paul Betts

Published: October 14 2010 21:23 | Last updated: October 14 2010 21:23

Nicolas Sarkozy likes to portray himself as the executive president. He sees himself as France’s salesman-in-chief promoting the country’s flagship exports, clinching deals around the world, especially with fast-growing emerging countries like China, India, Brazil and the oil-rich Gulf nations. He has even set up a so-called “war room” in his Elysée palace to support military and civil exports.

But this grand export strategy seems to be running into growing difficulties of late. The new generation EPR European pressurised reactor – supposed to be spearheading the country’s ambitions to lead the revival of the world nuclear market – is facing all sorts of problems, not least in Finland, the US and in Abu Dhabi where it lost out to South Korea.

Worse, Eurostar, the Channel tunnel high-speed train operator controlled by SNCF, the French state railway, has just ordered German-built Siemens trains rather than those of its national champion, Alstom. Even more worrying is the continuing dearth of export orders for the Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft.

France has yet to win an export order for the Rafale. It has been trying for a decade without success. Securing a foreign order for this combat aircraft is not just a matter of prestige for the French. After all, Serge Dassault, the veteran controlling shareholder of the eponymous aircraft maker, is also a senator and member of the governing UMP party and owner of Le Figaro, the slavishly pro-Sarkozy newspaper.

But there are more important reasons why Rafale export sales are so crucial. Exports would reduce the overall cost of the programme at the same time as providing funds to help finance new research and technology. Without exports, there is the risk that France would no longer be able to ensure the autonomy of its military aircraft industry, especially when the time eventually comes to develop a replacement for the Rafale.

Last, but not least, failure to export the combat aircraft will put further stress on the country’s already stretched Treasury. Indeed, the French Defence Ministry has decided to order 11 additional Rafales next year earlier than scheduled to ensure that production lines keep running. This will cost the taxpayer an extra €800m ($1.1bn).

It is not for lack of trying on the part of the president that France has so far failed to place an export order for the Rafale. But Mr Sarkozy also has a tendency of jumping the gun. He clearly finds it difficult to resist announcing to the world that he has finally pulled off a significant export sale for the Rafale even before the contract is signed and delivered.

A year ago, he announced with great fanfare that France had struck up a privileged relationship with President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva and that Brazil had agreed to buy a first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft. In the long run, the order could rise to 100 combat aircraft. But 12 months later, the deal has yet to be finalised and there are signs that the Brazilians may ultimately opt for the rival Swedish Saab Gripen fighter rather than the more expensive Rafale.

A senior Brazilian government official confirmed this week that Brazil had decided to suspend a final decision until after the second round of the country’s presidential elections at the end of this month. He also suggested the competition was still open. In other words, the choice could still go either way.

This summer, President Sarkozy also announced that the UAE was considering replacing its older fleet of 63 French Mirage jets with Rafales. Once again, the French camp seemed confident they had finally clinched an export order for the aircraft in a region that has traditionally been an important customer for French defence equipment. But this month, the UAE suggested it was also looking at the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet as an alternative. So the prospect of success once again risks turning into a mirage.

Elsewhere, Kuwait and India are looking for new combat aircraft but the competition is bound to be fierce. For several reasons. The first is that the US military-industrial complex is intensifying its export sales drive, not least to compensate for heavy cuts in the Pentagon’s budget. The second is that Russia is now in the game and has overtaken France as the world’s third largest arms exporter after the US and the UK. The third is a problem purely of Europe’s own making.

In all these export contests, Europe invariably fields three competing offers of its own – the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale and the Saab Gripen – which is one more than even the US typically offers. In so doing, it gives its US and Russian rivals an obvious advantage. Until the Europeans finally decide to consolidate their combat aircraft industry, they can only continue to lose altitude.

Paul Betts is a senior FT correspondent based in Paris
 
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Sir,
This isn't a credible point to shown that Rafael is not a worthy aircraft.
Do you have any credible source or quote to prove your points? or are you a military expert/Engineer to say about every inch by inch of that fighter? Am expecting your reply...
with respect.:)

I never stated that its not a worthy aircraft..
I am however.. merely stating the situation as I see it..
If a girl isnt getting married even though she is extremely beautiful.. intelligent.. etc etc.. there is obviously something more at play than just luck.
Is it technical..
Political..??
Financial??
I cant be certain..but the French cant have bad relations with everybody.. and while they are pricy.. everybody negotiates..
So it must be something technical..


As for who I am..and what I do..
I could state that I am a qualified aerospace engineer and blah blah..
But since you are already cynical in your approach.. you wont believe me even if I was one..
After all... why should I waste my time proving who I am to somebody who I have no idea about.. and who cant prove his identity either.. after all.. anybody here could be a thumbsucking thirteen year old who is waiting for his mother to bring him his nightly Horlicks.. while he posts articles from 90yr old financial analysts talking about
why Victoria's secret isnt a hit amongst Afghani women..
So please.. if you doubt my "professionalism" in my non-chalant "analysis" of the Rafale's sale..
file a complaint in the Quality assurance dept.
for future reference.. please ignore my posts.. as I will ignore yours regarding a financial consultants comments on why the Rafale did not sell.. and more on France's export woes..

Regards.
 
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Sir,
This isn't a credible point to shown that Rafael is not a worthy aircraft.
Do you have any credible source or quote to prove your points? or are you a military expert/Engineer to say about every inch by inch of that fighter? Am expecting your reply...
with respect.:)



UAE Demands for Rafale Improvements are Revealing

From the current issue of DSI magazine, in an article called "Awaiting the UAE":

And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?

The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale
They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc..
The Emirians want a viewfinder-HMD
Initial deliveries of the Rafale M were to the F1 ("France 1") standard. This meant that the aircraft was suitable for air-to-air combat, replacing the obsolescent F-8 Crusader as the Aviation Navale's carrier-based fighter, but not equipped or armed for air-to-ground operations.

Rafale, radars, fail.
Rafale, engines, unacceptable, as designed
Rafale air to air missiles, MICA IR marginal, radar homer, epic fail.
Air to ground, current E/OL obsolete, still awaiting Damocles.
Dumb bombs, has dropped them IN COMBAT.
CM, failed against US tests..
PGMs, epic fail also IN COMBAT.
Precision strike, testing, looks promising
 
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I never stated that its not a worthy aircraft..
I am however.. merely stating the situation as I see it..
If a girl isnt getting married even though she is extremely beautiful.. intelligent.. etc etc.. there is obviously something more at play than just luck.
Is it technical..
Political..??
Financial??
I cant be certain..but the French cant have bad relations with everybody.. and while they are pricy.. everybody negotiates..
So it must be something technical..


As for who I am..and what I do..
I could state that I am a qualified aerospace engineer and blah blah..
But since you are already cynical in your approach.. you wont believe me even if I was one..
After all... why should I waste my time proving who I am to somebody who I have no idea about.. and who cant prove his identity either.. after all.. anybody here could be a thumbsucking thirteen year old who is waiting for his mother to bring him his nightly Horlicks.. while he posts articles from 90yr old financial analysts talking about
why Victoria's secret isnt a hit amongst Afghani women..
So please.. if you doubt my "professionalism" in my non-chalant "analysis" of the Rafale's sale..
file a complaint in the Quality assurance dept.
for future reference.. please ignore my posts.. as I will ignore yours regarding a financial consultants comments on why the Rafale did not sell.. and more on France's export woes..

Regards.

This is what I call a reply...:cheers: It's funny sir I really enjoyed it thank you.:smitten:
 
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UAE Demands for Rafale Improvements are Revealing


Initial deliveries of the Rafale M were to the F1 ("France 1") standard. This meant that the aircraft was suitable for air-to-air combat, replacing the obsolescent F-8 Crusader as the Aviation Navale's carrier-based fighter, but not equipped or armed for air-to-ground operations.

Rafale, radars, fail.
Rafale, engines, unacceptable, as designed
Rafale air to air missiles, MICA IR marginal, radar homer, epic fail.
Air to ground, current E/OL obsolete, still awaiting Damocles.
Dumb bombs, has dropped them IN COMBAT.
CM, failed against US tests..
PGMs, epic fail also IN COMBAT.
Precision strike, testing, looks promising

Please post it in English.
 
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