JF-17 and LCA development comparison

[Contrarian]

The impact kinetic energy and resultant destruction will be more than the slower Brahmos,provided two of these are fired against one Brahmos...

Probability of interception of a CM-400 is much higher than that of BrahMos/Babur/Klub.

 

[Contrarian]

Not to mention the cost of Barak..about 3 million per missile...
Whatever india does in an expendive way.Pakistan counter acts at much lower cost,this is a trend now.

I'll tell you why its still better for India. For the most part India builds, Pakistan buys.

Its like saying the Chinese have had it more expensive than us because they are building a 5th gen fighter while we will get the same at lower cost. That is a wrong approach. In the long run they do better, apart from that a bigger portion of the money goes back into the country, driving up the economy, creating skills and employment.

Secondly if you give examples of India buying expensive fighters like Rafale and Pakistan putting up cheaper alternatives like JF-17, lets just say if Pakistan had the money, they wouldnt be buying JF-17's.

You are pretty wrong in your approach there.

 

[Windjammer]

I'll tell you why its still better for India. For the most part India builds, Pakistan buys.

Its like saying the Chinese have had it more expensive than us because they are building a 5th gen fighter while we will get the same at lower cost. That is a wrong approach. In the long run they do better, apart from that a bigger portion of the money goes back into the country, driving up the economy, creating skills and employment.

Secondly if you give examples of India buying expensive fighters like Rafale and Pakistan putting up cheaper alternatives like JF-17, lets just say if Pakistan had the money, they wouldnt be buying JF-17's.

You are pretty wrong in your approach there.

Wrong example my friend, even as India has the funds to purchase the likes of Rafale, it still pursues the decades old dream of fielding the LCA, not to mention others like Arjun and IJT.....one may ask why. ???
On the contrary, Pakistan has to some extent fulfilled it's goal to be self sufficient in this field....JF-17, AL-Khalid and K-8 being prime examples. Isn't it ironic that on one side, PAF cut back on the option of 18 more Block-52s, yet it has the funds to build and induct other platforms in even larger numbers. !!

 

[Contrarian]

Wrong example my friend, even as India has the funds to purchase the likes of Rafale, it still pursues the decades old dream of fielding the LCA, not to mention others like Arjun and IJT.....one may ask why. ???

Yup. Self reliance. However we did not have the technological ability to create anything more advanced than the LCA. And thus we had to put a limit there.

On the contrary, Pakistan has to some extent fulfilled it's goal to be self sufficient in this field....JF-17, AL-Khalid and K-8 being prime examples. Isn't it ironic that on one side, PAF cut back on the option of 18 more Block-52s, yet it has the funds to build and induct other platforms in even larger numbers. !!

There are 3 phases here:
1. Assembling - from CKD, SKD
2. Licenced Manufacture
3. Building from your own designs

Well mate, as of now Pakistan is assembling JF-17 from kits. Its not building them. If you think of Pakistan being self sufficient is assembling JF-17 then you dont have an idea that India has been building not just assembling planes for a really long time now.
That line that you have at Kamra right now - it assembles, not even licensed manufacture at the moment.

In about 3 years they start licence manufacturing - only some items, not even 50% of the plane.

The point of LCA was to develop our own indigenous components that go in that plane, not just buy everything from different sources and assemble them. How far along is Pakistan in that? Yes im NOT talking even about even licensed manufacture, im talking about building from your own design using your own technology.

If PAF had more money, they would have gone for assembling J-10's - customizing them as well as they dont like what the Chinese have right now.

They would have put up an assembly line for J-10's. Maybe after 5 years, they would have gone on to license manufacture of many items from that plane. They wouldnt be with JF-17's.

 

[Windjammer]

Yup. Self reliance. However we did not have the technological ability to create anything more advanced than the LCA. And thus we had to put a limit there.

Nothing wrong with that, one has to crawl before he can walk and then go on running.
Albeit, India did have past experience in the likes of Ajeet and HF-24.

There are 3 phases here:
1. Assembling - from CKD, SKD
2. Licenced Manufacture
3. Building from your own designs

Well mate, as of now Pakistan is assembling JF-17 from kits. Its not building them. If you think of Pakistan being self sufficient is assembling JF-17 then you dont have an idea that India has been building not just assembling planes for a really long time now.
That line that you have at Kamra right now - it assembles, not even licensed manufacture at the moment.

In about 3 years they start licence manufacturing - only some items, not even 50% of the plane.

The point of LCA was to develop our own indigenous components that go in that plane, not just buy everything from different sources and assemble them. How far along is Pakistan in that? Yes im NOT talking even about even licensed manufacture, im talking about building from your own design using your own technology.

If PAF had more money, they would have gone for assembling J-10's - customizing them as well as they dont like what the Chinese have right now.

They would have put up an assembly line for J-10's. Maybe after 5 years, they would have gone on to license manufacture of many items from that plane. They wouldnt be buying JF-17's.

Either you are in oblivion or your flag is talking for you.....suggest you read Oscar's posts from yesterday, India may be building Russian designs and seconded jets but JF-17 has the distinction of probably the only fighter aircraft designed and overseen by airforce personal.....again read Oscar to learn on the JFT story.

 

[SQ8]

Yup. Self reliance. However we did not have the technological ability to create anything more advanced than the LCA. And thus we had to put a limit there.



There are 3 phases here:
1. Assembling - from CKD, SKD
2. Licenced Manufacture
3. Building from your own designs

Well mate, as of now Pakistan is assembling JF-17 from kits. Its not building them. If you think of Pakistan being self sufficient is assembling JF-17 then you dont have an idea that India has been building not just assembling planes for a really long time now.
That line that you have at Kamra right now - it assembles, not even licensed manufacture at the moment.

In about 3 years they start licence manufacturing - only some items, not even 50% of the plane.

The point of LCA was to develop our own indigenous components that go in that plane, not just buy everything from different sources and assemble them. How far along is Pakistan in that? Yes im NOT talking even about even licensed manufacture, im talking about building from your own design using your own technology.

If PAF had more money, they would have gone for assembling J-10's - customizing them as well as they dont like what the Chinese have right now.

They would have put up an assembly line for J-10's. Maybe after 5 years, they would have gone on to license manufacture of many items from that plane. They wouldnt be with JF-17's.

Please refer to my previous posts a few pages back for some corrections on your assumptions.

 

[Thorough Pro]

There are 3 phases here:
1. Assembling - from CKD, SKD
2. Licenced Manufacture
3. Building from your own designs

Well mate, as of now Pakistan is assembling JF-17 from kits. Its not building them. If you think of Pakistan being self sufficient is assembling JF-17 then you dont have an idea that India has been building not just assembling planes for a really long time now.
That line that you have at Kamra right now - it assembles, not even licensed manufacture at the moment.

Same is the case with LCA too.in case of Thunders all parts except engines come from the same source unlike LCA which uses parts fromallover the world.

 

[Peregrine]

Ahhhh the dreams of pacific blockade.........

 

[Contrarian]

Nothing wrong with that, one has to crawl before he can walk and then go on running.
Albeit, India did have past experience in the likes of Ajeet and HF-24.



Either you are in oblivion or your flag is talking for you.....suggest you read Oscar's posts from yesterday, India may be building Russian designs and seconded jets but JF-17 has the distinction of probably the only fighter aircraft designed and overseen by airforce personal.....again read Oscar to learn on the JFT story.

Please refer to my previous posts a few pages back for some corrections on your assumptions.

I read those posts. I understand and am aware that PAF team led the project and the project was designed as per PAF requirements with them pitching in with their experience of F-16's which PAF knows intimately.

However the work, the manufacturing, the ability to prototype PAF's requirements and put it practically, the testing equipment all were Chinese and were limited by China's technological capability, not Pakistan's.

What technological ability does Pakistan have? Do they produce composites? How far ahead is Pakistan in materials research? Has Pakistan built a radar? Has Pakistan built an engine? Has Pakistan even built an indigenous EW suite to be used on aerial platforms?

So what exactly does Pakistan do in terms of project execution right now? Assemble SKD's moving on to CKD's.

From here they will move to building some items and keep progressing. This is no technological breakthrough for Pakistan.

What is being implied here by people is that Pakistan can now make its own fighters. That is not true by the longest shot imaginable. Pakistan is as of date not even able to license manufacture JF-17 in Pakistan to the tune of even 50%. While its a start and the first step, making your own fighters is a totally different ballgame.

As i said before, if Pakistan had money, they would be doing the same thing for J-10's instead of JF-17's. J-10's fullfill all requirements as well.

 

[Dazzler]

For the umteenth time, keep the discussion as specified by the thread title. Enough of same age old comparisons and rhetoric.

 

[Viper0011.]

However the work, the manufacturing, the ability to prototype PAF's requirements and put it practically, the testing equipment all were Chinese and were limited by China's technological capability, not Pakistan's.

What technological ability does Pakistan have? Do they produce composites? How far ahead is Pakistan in materials research? Has Pakistan built a radar? Has Pakistan built an engine? Has Pakistan even built an indigenous EW suite to be used on aerial platforms?

Half the stuff you are talking about....was taught to you guys by the American companies like GE, etc. You guys didn't know jack about project execution till the 2000.....thanks to the donated American jobs!!! Now you are going to sound arrogant and question the world?

The SAM's you are testing....are being tested and even built by the Israelis. The so called engine manufacturing....you guys couldn't master Russian tech so you went and asked the US for it. The avionics, from Israel, Russia, France to the US....car designs were taken from Japan and then some from the UK.....Space craft.....I should THANK NASA and the European space commission and the Israelis for it. Sat's, definitely my countrymen in the US, the Brits and the Israelis.
ALL these countries are giving you design input to the product evaluation and testing. What is it that India produced? Besides the cheap (and on this forum, arrogant labor)??
You guys couldn't spell the work process engineering till the 2000. You guys did produce labor, aka, the java and .net coders but that's it. It is NOW, after 1 and a half century that you are trying to expand your horizon and doing additional stuff. Still trying.
Let's stick to the thread. It's funny to see 'I rule the world' attitude. I would love to see where you guys would be in 2012 if the US hadn't donated a quarter of its economy to help you guys get stronger against the Chinese!!!

 

[Contrarian]

Half the stuff you are talking about....was taught to you guys by the American companies like GE, etc. You guys didn't know jack about project execution till the 2000.....thanks to the donated American jobs!!! Now you are going to sound arrogant and question the world?

The SAM's you are testing....are being tested and even built by the Israelis. The so called engine manufacturing....you guys couldn't master Russian tech so you went and asked the US for it. The avionics, from Israel, Russia, France to the US....car designs were taken from Japan and then some from the UK.....Space craft.....I should THANK NASA and the European space commission and the Israelis for it. Sat's, definitely my countrymen in the US, the Brits and the Israelis.
ALL these countries are giving you design input to the product evaluation and testing. What is it that India produced? Besides the cheap (and on this forum, arrogant labor)??
You guys couldn't spell the work process engineering till the 2000. You guys did produce labor, aka, the java and .net coders but that's it. It is NOW, after 1 and a half century that you are trying to expand your horizon and doing additional stuff. Still trying.
Let's stick to the thread. It's funny to see 'I rule the world' attitude. I would love to see where you guys would be in 2012 if the US hadn't donated a quarter of its economy to help you guys get stronger against the Chinese!!!

Sorry my lord. This labourer still cannot spell and work even after donated jobs

 

[SQ8]

I read those posts. I understand and am aware that PAF team led the project and the project was designed as per PAF requirements with them pitching in with their experience of F-16's which PAF knows intimately.

However the work, the manufacturing, the ability to prototype PAF's requirements and put it practically, the testing equipment all were Chinese and were limited by China's technological capability, not Pakistan's.

What technological ability does Pakistan have? Do they produce composites? How far ahead is Pakistan in materials research? Has Pakistan built a radar? Has Pakistan built an engine? Has Pakistan even built an indigenous EW suite to be used on aerial platforms?

So what exactly does Pakistan do in terms of project execution right now? Assemble SKD's moving on to CKD's.

From here they will move to building some items and keep progressing. This is no technological breakthrough for Pakistan.

What is being implied here by people is that Pakistan can now make its own fighters. That is not true by the longest shot imaginable. Pakistan is as of date not even able to license manufacture JF-17 in Pakistan to the tune of even 50%. While its a start and the first step, making your own fighters is a totally different ballgame.

As i said before, if Pakistan had money, they would be doing the same thing for J-10's instead of JF-17's. J-10's fullfill all requirements as well.

RAM materials design and manufacturing to an unspecified level and usage.
Composite research and small scale manufacture.
Self designed EW suites, integration , etc.

You are undervaluing what my post said.. and not taking it in direct terms.

 

[Safriz]

Sudan — which has 20 Nanchang Q-5/A-5C (MiG-19) Fantan ground
attack aircraft and six Hongdu JL-8/K-8 advanced trainer/ground attack
aircraft — reportedly is interested in procuring 12 Chengdu FC-1
Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder fighters. “

..................

 

[Contrarian]

RAM materials design and manufacturing to an unspecified level and usage.
Composite research and small scale manufacture.
Self designed EW suites, integration , etc.

You are undervaluing what my post said.. and not taking it in direct terms.

Mate, we gotta disagree here because nothing is specified or specific. General terms - composite research and small scale manufacture?

In any case take my words to the extent you think i am right, and i take your words in the same - pending more details to emerge on Pakistan's industrial and research infrastructure to come up.