Jet Engine Production in Pakistan

[araz]

How old is China ? How old is Israel ?
How old is even India ?

The difference amongst other things is who backs you and what political will do you have. A nation of corrupt politicans and Army men who prefer large US/German cars over a specialized steel plant do not have the political will. There is then no relevant educational support for projects like this. Seondly Haram khori and commissions mean that you will buy i stead of building in house and therefore presenting various excuses. For instance how do you rely on an Ex Air chief whose property is rented out for Offices for Saab to give you another option. I think the problem is multifaceted but can be done. Again what time and and at what cost is something wd need to determine. A saner way maybe to take up assembly rights for an engine with progressively increasing local content and diversifying from there. However that also depends on the other party playing ball and a national will.
Comparisons have been made with Israel and China. Israel has one of the strongest backers in the US jewish lobby who not only willingly pass on secrets to the state of Israel but also support through their own pockets and via government funding to the state of Israel. That and the hard working and industrious jews make it tick, but the material espionage and monetary support is pivotal. China on the other hand is resource rich and has a strict Government who uses money wisely. In their second rethink strategy they have improved leaps and bounds. However their design philosophy is based on copying and they have issues with quality control and progression, which they are slowly over coming. However when you can spend 30 billion on a single project you can do anything given time.
A

Same or worse were the conditions at same time in China, Japan and Germany.
These are just excuses. In fact our nation is corrupt to core. We were far ahead in 60s than today.
Ask any old guy how Pakistan's industry was booming in 60s. @MastanKhan and then came Bhutto zinda he and with him downfall and corruption.

You say that but what did we actually produce? We had to flee to the UN in 65 as we had run out of ammo. No tanks no field guns. We were in CEATO AND CENTO but we gained jack from it.

 

[SipahSalar]

We were in CETO AND CENTO but we gained jack from it.

SEATO...not CETO.

 

[araz]

SEATO...not CETO.

Thank you. I stand corrected.
Regards
A

 

[Raider 21]

The difference amongst other things is who backs you and what political will do you have. A nation of corrupt politicans and Army men who prefer large US/German cars over a specialized steel plant do not have the political will. There is then no relevant educational support for projects like this. Seondly Haram khori and commissions mean that you will buy i stead of building in house and therefore presenting various excuses. For instance how do you rely on an Ex Air chief whose property is rented out for Offices for Saab to give you another option. I think the problem is multifaceted but can be done. Again what time and and at what cost is something wd need to determine. A saner way maybe to take up assembly rights for an engine with progressively increasing local content and diversifying from there. However that also depends on the other party playing ball and a national will.
Comparisons have been made with Israel and China. Israel has one of the strongest backers in the US jewish lobby who not only willingly pass on secrets to the state of Israel but also support through their own pockets and via government funding to the state of Israel. That and the hard working and industrious jews make it tick, but the material espionage and monetary support is pivotal. China on the other hand is resource rich and has a strict Government who uses money wisely. In their second rethink strategy they have improved leaps and bounds. However their design philosophy is based on copying and they have issues with quality control and progression, which they are slowly over coming. However when you can spend 30 billion on a single project you can do anything given time.
A


You say that but what did we actually produce? We had to flee to the UN in 65 as we had run out of ammo. No tanks no field guns. We were in CETO AND CENTO but we gained jack from it.

And Israel knows how to work hard. They have had their fair share of embargoes imposed by the US government which led to paving way into local industries.

 

[araz]

And Israel knows how to work hard. They have had their fair share of embargoes imposed by the US government which led to paving way into local industries.

Agreed fully and I think reflected in the post and certainly the help does not take away the effort put in by the Israelis. The Jewish Israeli US lobby does not however respect any embargoes and supplies relevant information irrespective of the Government directives. Another case in proof of my point is how ship loads of detailed plans for the Mirage fighters were smuggled to Israel inspite of French embargo on the actual platform. Whether there was collusion of the French Government remains debatable, but to be fair we bought the 16s and got nowhere near enough information to actually build the plane in house.
A

 

[Raider 21]

Agreed fully and I think reflected in the post and certainly the help does not take away the effort put in by the Israelis. The Jewish Israeli US lobby does not however respect any embargoes and supplies relevant information irrespective of the Government directives. Another case in proof of my point is how ship loads of detailed plans for the Mirage fighters were smuggled to Israel inspite of French embargo on the actual platform. Whether there was collusion of the French Government remains debatable, but to be fair we bought the 16s and got nowhere near enough information to actually build the plane in house.
A

Neither did they that's why they came up with their own electronics and weapons. They were not given the license to manufacture F-16s nor the latest F-35s. Pakistan was given the option for a license-production plant in 1984 after PEACE GATE I was done, but for some reason they threw away that option. That opportunity was then taken up by Turkey, who have been enjoying themselves with their aerospace industries.

Technicians I met in PAF who were part of the original F-16 cadre in the 1980s at the GD factory, at Carswell AFB (now known as Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth) mentioned that a good number of parts were still coming through the US (unknown to US government "officially") through GD.

 

[araz]

Neither did they that's why they came up with their own electronics and weapons. They were not given the license to manufacture F-16s nor the latest F-35s. Pakistan was given the option for a license-production plant in 1984 after PEACE GATE I was done, but for some reason they threw away that option. That opportunity was then taken up by Turkey, who have been enjoying themselves with their aerospace industries.

Technicians I met in PAF who were part of the original F-16 cadre in the 1980s at the GD factory, at Carswell AFB (now known as Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth) mentioned that a good number of parts were still coming through the US (unknown to US government "officially") through GD.

I was under the impression that this plan was scuppered by the US. Can you please confirm. But just another point to further reinforce my point of view. To put your avionics and other system into a US ORIGIN fighter would signify you have the codes for the fighter to make the necessary changes. How????.
A

 

[Raider 21]

I wws under the impression that this plan was scuppered by the US. Can you please confirm. But just another point to further reinforce my point of view. To put your avionics and other shstem into a US ORIGIN fighter would signify you have the codes for the fighter to make the necessary changes. How????.
A

Both parties could not reach an agreement, Pakistan was the first to make noise (very usual), then the US government followed. Yes there will be codes but under US supervision those changes can be applied. Korean F-16 program also has some domestic produced electrical components.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It was not a ship load of mirage plans / blue prints---. It was about 2 tons---stored in a civilian storage location in switzerland.

Swiss had the right to manufacture the aircraft.

The israelis found the location---told their sob story to the storage place manager---got him emotionally involved and to their side---helped him financially and he allowed them to get into the storage---.

The israelis used a VW mini van to take the blue prints out---. Took them quite a few trips---but they succeeded before the swiss authorities became aware---.

 

[!eon]

I am also saying it's the people in power, people in government responsible, not only in Pakistan but any where in the world.

Few days back I was driving in Pakistan (which is actually pain in butt if you are used to driving in Germany).
My father,an ex military was sitting beside me. I pointed out dirty traffic and blamed govt for that.
He replied why you always blame govt ?
I reminded him tough procedure of obtaining license in Germany and then strict penalty system and heavy finances attached with all this process. Then result is one of safest but fastest flowing traffic in the world.
I said now compare it with Pakistani driving license (though you don't need any in Pakistan) and bribes of traffic authority, and result is one of the most dirty mess, where even no one knows how many die every day in this traffic

People come in this world without knowledge and awareness. It's govt that manages knowledge and awareness for them.

The difference amongst other things is who backs you and what political will do you have. A nation of corrupt politicans and Army men who prefer large US/German cars over a specialized steel plant do not have the political will. There is then no relevant educational support for projects like this. Seondly Haram khori and commissions mean that you will buy i stead of building in house and therefore presenting various excuses. For instance how do you rely on an Ex Air chief whose property is rented out for Offices for Saab to give you another option. I think the problem is multifaceted but can be done. Again what time and and at what cost is something wd need to determine. A saner way maybe to take up assembly rights for an engine with progressively increasing local content and diversifying from there. However that also depends on the other party playing ball and a national will.
Comparisons have been made with Israel and China. Israel has one of the strongest backers in the US jewish lobby who not only willingly pass on secrets to the state of Israel but also support through their own pockets and via government funding to the state of Israel. That and the hard working and industrious jews make it tick, but the material espionage and monetary support is pivotal. China on the other hand is resource rich and has a strict Government who uses money wisely. In their second rethink strategy they have improved leaps and bounds. However their design philosophy is based on copying and they have issues with quality control and progression, which they are slowly over coming. However when you can spend 30 billion on a single project you can do anything given time.
A


You say that but what did we actually produce? We had to flee to the UN in 65 as we had run out of ammo. No tanks no field guns. We were in CETO AND CENTO but we gained jack from it.

Comparisons have been made with Israel and China. Israel has one of the strongest backers in the US jewish lobby who not only willingly pass on secrets to the state of Israel but also support through their own pockets and via government funding to the state of Israel. That and the hard working and industrious jews make it tick, but the material espionage and monetary support is pivotal. China on the other hand is resource rich and has a strict Government who uses money wisely. In their second rethink strategy they have improved leaps and bounds. However their design philosophy is based on copying and they have issues with quality control and progression, which they are slowly over coming. However when you can spend 30 billion on a single project you can do anything given time.

 

[!eon]

Ideal it was never in Pakistan, not even 60s. It was only private industry boom. Govt hadn't set any political direction. That remains biggest failure of ours till today.
Our elite, both civil and military is a shame, rest is all only discussion and discussion on lower level.

In the end, it's we, no one will come to help us. We have to find ways, copy paste, theft, whatever you say it, but no one invents the wheel second time.

Comparisons have been made with Israel and China. Israel has one of the strongest backers in the US jewish lobby who not only willingly pass on secrets to the state of Israel but also support through their own pockets and via government funding to the state of Israel. That and the hard working and industrious jews make it tick, but the material espionage and monetary support is pivotal. China on the other hand is resource rich and has a strict Government who uses money wisely. In their second rethink strategy they have improved leaps and bounds. However their design philosophy is based on copying and they have issues with quality control and progression, which they are slowly over coming. However when you can spend 30 billion on a single project you can do anything given time.

 

[araz]

Ideal it was never in Pakistan, not even 60s. It was only private industry boom. Govt hadn't set any political direction. That remains biggest failure of ours till today.
Our elite, both civil and military is a shame, rest is all only discussion and discussion on lower level.

In the end, it's we, no one will come to help us. We have to find ways, copy paste, theft, whatever you say it, but no one invents the wheel second time.

The spirit is right but again there is more to it than meets the eye. Even if you have the spirit it wont do anything when you need a specialized steel plant to manufacturew the turbine blades. It is Dual use as I think turbines are the basis of electricity generation of which we have immense shortage. Then there are ancillary skills one needs to acquire before you are ready for the final lunge. This is why i have suggested a progressive stage of assembly with increasing content of locally assembled parts.
A

 

[ejaz007]

Considering the possible number of planes (less than 500) to be manufactured in Pakistan is it feasible to set up a engine manufacturing facility.

The facility only becomes feasible if we win export orders and that too in some numbers.

 

[PakSword]

Ideal it was never in Pakistan, not even 60s. It was only private industry boom. Govt hadn't set any political direction. That remains biggest failure of ours till today.
Our elite, both civil and military is a shame, rest is all only discussion and discussion on lower level.

In the end, it's we, no one will come to help us. We have to find ways, copy paste, theft, whatever you say it, but no one invents the wheel second time.

What about nationalization in 70s? I think that was the worst thing happened to Pakistan...

Forget jet engines, first produce basic vehicle or tractor engine to begin with.

or a turbine to produce electricity from water...

 

[araz]

Considering the possible number of planes (less than 500) to be manufactured in Pakistan is it feasible to set up a engine manufacturing facility.

The facility only becomes feasible if we win export orders and that too in some numbers.

Turbines are dual use technology in use in electricity generation. The principles remain the same. Similarly we have larger airliners which can be manufactured locally. The oint is at some stage we will have to take that step. The real question is when and at what cost and by whom, ie Government or private sector.
A