Japan’s Pivot Away from the West Leads Back to China

[mike2000]

Why is it so wrong to talk about an East Asian Community? No need to panic, mike.

You're overreacting a bit too extremely.

LOOL im not panicking, why should i? afterall, im just a simple european civilian.

Im just making a point, saying facts. You yourself know that all the points i made there are correct. The U.S has treated Japan very lightly, mainly because it wanted to use it as a bulk against the former U.S.S.R/communism. If not for that then believe me, Japan would have been treated the same way Germany was treated after the war, and all your war criminals(including your emperor) would have been trialed(as it normally should have been) and executed, and a constitution will have been imposed on japan prohibiting anyone ever denying japan's role in practicing sexual slavery in Asia or denying its crimes it commited in Asia. This would have been criminalized as it is in Germany.
Not that i think doing all these would have been that bad, no it will probably have brought more peace/reconciliation in Asia between japan and south Korea/China. However, Japan will have felt more humiliated than it already is/was. So lets just leave history anyway and focus on the present at hand.

Sorry my friend Nihonji, im just like being honest when im in a discussion forum so dont take it personal, since i believe thats how it should be. Personally i might be biased towards my country or even Japan(who is still a democracy/peaceful country) , but on forums i present facts/try and be honest. So don't take it personal bro. i know from your comments that you are quite humble/friendly in your replies unlike many members here, i appreciate that in people..

By the way hope you are good, how are you doing in the U.S?

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@LeveragedBuyout

There are , indeed, some barriers in East Asia , but I don't believe that these barriers, namely are based on nationalism, cannot be overcome. From my many visits and trips to East Asia , my impression was that there really is no general animosity with each other, but rather cooperation and even admiration for each other. When I was in Guangzhou couple of years back, i had the pleasure to meet and making Chinese friends there , and they expressed an awe and admiration for Japanese culture, which i can say is expressed by Japanese towards Chinese culture. In general, speaking as a Japanese , we do think positively of China and Chinese culture. It was just in 2009 that talks of an East Asian Community was even touted by one of our Prime Ministers.

Right now, it is evident that China will soon eclipse the United States economy. And in fact, the bilateral trade between Japan and China is as significant as the trade between Japan and the United States. This is why i believe it is important for Japan to not only bolster its defense capability, but also to build better relations with our east asian and south east asian partners. Which is happening now.

Personally, i believe that reconciliation between China and Japan is necessary and righteously deserved.

Sure, but I doubt that this will ever evolve beyond trade relations. I simply don't see what China has to gain from "ever closer union" with its neighbors, and since China is so dependent on trade with Europe and the US, an Asian Mercosur (or Asian Union, for that matter) common tariff and regulatory area is also not in the cards.

In any case, good luck.

 

[Aepsilons]

LOOL im not panicking, why should i? afterall, im just a simple european civilian.

Im just making a point, saying facts. You yourself know that all the points i made there are correct. The U.S has treated Japan very lightly, mainly because it wanted to use it as a bulk against the former U.S.S.R/communism. If not for that then believe me, Jpan would have been treated the same way germnay was treated after the war, and all your war criminals(including your emperor) would have been trial(as it normally should have been) and executed, and a consitution will have been imposedon japan prohibiting anyone ever denying japans role in practicing sexual slavery in Asia or denying its crimes it commited in Asia. this would have been criminalized as it is in Germany.
Not that i think doing all these would have been that bad, no it will probably have brough more peace/reconciliation in Asia. However, Japan will ahve felt more humiliated than it already is/was. So lets just leave history anyway and focus on the present at hand.

Sorry my friend Nihonji, im just like being honest when im in a discussion forum so dont take it personal, since i believe thats how it should be. Personally i might be biased towards my country or even Japan(who is still a democracy/peaceful country) , but on forums i present facts/try and be honest. So don't take it personal bro. i know from your comments that you are quite humble/friendly in your replies unlike many members here, i appreciate that in people..

By the way hope you are good, how are you doing in the U.S?

Mike,

I've enjoyed our very lively and informative discussions here , and I hope it will continue indefinitely. I merely reacted to the ranting of our little italian friend who's tone in his posts directed towards me was -- rather unbecoming and hostile -- my personal point of view. So if i seemed rather emotion in my response earlier, i apologize if in any ways insulted you or any other members. Because that was not the intent.

I am quite aware of the very delicate relationship Japan has with the United States; both of whom were the fiercest enemies in the past, and now have become , effectively, potent and strategic partners in the world stage. There is a very strong perception of Americans in Japanese society, not all is positive, of course, but we have an overall positive outlook in regards to America and American people.

My discussion with @Chinese-Dragon and others here was more akin of a hypothetical discussion, all spurred by our feelings of reconciliation between Japan and China and South Korea.

PS. Doing pretty good here, right now finishing up my Ph.D's requirement on literature review. Fun stuff. How's everything over there in UK?

Thanks,
Regards,
Kenji

 

[The SC]

Well we are already saturated with investment, domestic investment has been running at about 50% of GDP for a decade now.

We are trying to move AWAY from an investment-fueled economic model. This is the whole point of our recent and upcoming economic reforms.

Which means that huge amounts of funds are going to start flowing overseas, as we start acquiring foreign assets on a large-scale.

China should go into International banking than. After investments in foreign countries, that should help in moving that "dead" money sitting there and turn it around usefully.

 

[Aepsilons]

Sure, but I doubt that this will ever evolve beyond trade relations. I simply don't see what China has to gain from "ever closer union" with its neighbors, and since China is so dependent on trade with Europe and the US, an Asian Mercosur (or Asian Union, for that matter) common tariff and regulatory area is also not in the cards.

In any case, good luck.

Its a positive yearning, and a noble dream. I don't think having such intentions and hopes should be subject to ridicule.

Kind regards,

 

[MarkusS]

@LeveragedBuyout

There are , indeed, some barriers in East Asia , but I don't believe that these barriers, namely are based on nationalism, cannot be overcome. From my many visits and trips to East Asia , my impression was that there really is no general animosity with each other, but rather cooperation and even admiration for each other. When I was in Guangzhou couple of years back, i had the pleasure to meet and making Chinese friends there , and they expressed an awe and admiration for Japanese culture, which i can say is expressed by Japanese towards Chinese culture. In general, speaking as a Japanese , we do think positively of China and Chinese culture. It was just in 2009 that talks of an East Asian Community was even touted by one of our Prime Ministers.

Right now, it is evident that China will soon eclipse the United States economy. And in fact, the bilateral trade between Japan and China is as significant as the trade between Japan and the United States. This is why i believe it is important for Japan to not only bolster its defense capability, but also to build better relations with our east asian and south east asian partners. Which is happening now.

Personally, i believe that reconciliation between China and Japan is necessary and righteously deserved.



Europe was under the heels of Nazi Germany, then the ally of Japanese Empire.

LOL

japan never was a real ally for germany. Germany did think quite bad about japan and there were many voices who even supported china over japan.

 

[mike2000]

When people say that a community within east asia is an impossibility, i like to answer that there is no such thing as impossibility. Some 100 years ago, Europeans thought that East Asians were weak , easily influenced, and that a notion of a powerful East Asian power was an impssibility. This was racist, colonial-mindedness was obliterated when Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese War and then again defeated Germany when we took the Marianas and other islands in WWI (as Japan was an allied power).

If European countries can form an EU , reduce trade tarrifs and barriers, implement a common currency, and allow a favorable migration policy, then i see no reason why Japan, China, South Korea cannot do the same. Afterall our economies are heavily intertwined and there is already a massive transferring population between these 3 countries. Chinese come to Japan in massive numbers, Taiwanese, South Korean and Japanese travel is also high.

So that said, is it wrong to consider , or even ponder a possibility of a East Asian Community? I think not.

Japan , China and South Korea may have trust issues with each other now, but that does not affect our bilateral trade as well as our massive inter-operability in regards to tourism.

I believe it is possible.



LOL. The economy of Japan is greater than that of Germany, the industrial center of Europe.

And You're Italian. Your country could not even contain Ethiopia. Italy's GNP, GDP does not even come close to my nation's.






He went because it was a G7 tour , and he came at the behest (or the begging) of Europe for an FTA.

Second, the issue of His Imperial Majesty the Emperor is not related to this. So stay in topic, you Italian troll.

I agree with your points. But you must also know that germany was way more industrialized and bigger in every aspect than Japan before the wWWII. Germany suffered alot after the war, since the country was totally destroyed, not just some cities like Japan, since the U.S didnt really fully invade the Japanese mainland with massive troops/overun the country, Unlike germany who was totally invaded and each town,city and village was fought for and captured/destroyed untill it capitulated. Mainland Japan in this regard was lucky, since most of the heavy fighting took place on japanese islands like Okinawa etc. luckily for Japan, the droping of the nuclear bombs, made sure Japan quickly surrendered and didnt have to face the total destruction of the country(like it would have been the case, had the allies/U.S.S.R invaded/fought in Mainland Japan). SO many of japan heay industries/cities were spared, unlike Germany who was totally destroyed as it fought till the end.

Also you should know that unlike Japan, Germany was divided for decades after the war, with the eastern part under the soviets control/communists. So eastern Germnay being more backward/poor than the west caused alot of troubled for Germany after the reunification. Imagine how Japan will have looked like/be had it been divided like Germany with half the country being ruled by the communists/U.S.S.R and then decades later this poor region was reunited with Japan, do you think Japan will have been as wealthy as it is now? No it wouldnt, Germany had to absorb and intergrate its more poor and backward east after the collapse of the U.S.S.R. . it wasnt an easy task, not many country can achieve that in such a short period of time, and still stand as powerful as Germnay is.
This is not to say Japan is weak or whatever(since i know Jaoanese are hard working.disciplined and determined people), was just trying to make a point.

 

[Aepsilons]

I agree with your points. But you must also know that germany was way more industrialized and bigger in every aspect than Japan before the wWWII. Germany suffered alot after the war, since the country was totally destroyed, not just some cities like Japan, since the U.S didnt really fully invade the Japanese mainland with massive troops/overun the country, Unlike germany who was totally invaded and each town,city and village was fought for and captured/destroyed untill it capitulated. Mainland Japan in this regard was lucky, since most of the heavy fighting took place on japanese islands like Okinawa etc. luckily for Japan, the droping of the nuclear bombs, made sure Japan quickly surrendered and didnt have to face the total destruction of the country(like it would have been the case, had the allies/U.S.S.R invaded/fought in Mainland Japan). SO many of japan heay industries/cities were spared, unlike Germany who was totally destroyed as it fought till the end.

Also you should know that unlike Japan, Germany was divided for decades after the war, with the eastern part under the soviets control/communists. So eastern Germnay being more backward/poor than the west caused alot of troubled for Germany after the reunification. Imagine how Japan will have looked like/be had it been divided like Germany with half the country being ruled by the communists/U.S.S.R and then decades later this poor region was reunited with Japan, do you think Japan will have been as wealthy as it is now? No it wouldnt, Germany had to absorb and intergrate its more poor and backward east after the collapse of the U.S.S.R. . it wasnt an easy task, not many country can achieve that in such a short period of time, and still stand as powerful as Germnay is.
This is not to say Japan is weak or whatever(since i know Jaoanese are hard working.disciplined and determined people), was just trying to make a point.

In the War with the United States, Japan suffered immense aerial bombardment. Our industrial cities such as Yokohoma, Kobe, Toyko, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Sakai,Fukuoka, Gifu, Sapporo, Kagoshima, Kanagawa, Kawasaki, etc were subject to carpet bombing. German cities like Dresden were subject to such carpet bombing, as well, and death toll was rather high.

Like Germany, by the end of the war, Japan's industrial cities were leveled. That said, i will admit that we (Germany and Japan) owe a lot of thanks to the United States' Marshall Plan, which did help us to rebuild our economies.

 

[The SC]

It is just a natural move for Japan, after-all it is an Asian country. It should regain its Asian mind from western colonization, and have the best relations with its neighbors.
This is the time for Japanese awakening, but I guess they are already awakened, and can see that the West wants to use Japan as a pawn in their attempts to destabilize Asia, and mostly China and Japan (the most significant and powerful ones) by playing them against each other.
The same is happening in the Muslim world with the Shia vs Sunni created rift.
The West is just playing a game of politics, the most brilliant and educated nations do not fall in its traps, while others step into them and try to fight their way out... it is just a game, but a deadly game.
When the Western world or at least the responsible ones, will start tasting some traps of others, and will inevitably step into them, than, they will try to fight their way out too, the only thing is that... it is just a game, but a deadly game.

 

[mike2000]

Mike,

I've enjoyed our very lively and informative discussions here , and I hope it will continue indefinitely. I merely reacted to the ranting of our little italian friend who's tone in his posts directed towards me was -- rather unbecoming and hostile -- my personal point of view. So if i seemed rather emotion in my response earlier, i apologize if in any ways insulted you or any other members. Because that was not the intent.

I am quite aware of the very delicate relationship Japan has with the United States; both of whom were the fiercest enemies in the past, and now have become , effectively, potent and strategic partners in the world stage. There is a very strong perception of Americans in Japanese society, not all is positive, of course, but we have an overall positive outlook in regards to America and American people.

My discussion with @Chinese-Dragon and others here was more akin of a hypothetical discussion, all spurred by our feelings of reconciliation between Japan and China and South Korea.

PS. Doing pretty good here, right now finishing up my Ph.D's requirement on literature review. Fun stuff. How's everything over there in UK?

Thanks,
Regards,
Kenji

Awesome, so you are writing your Ph.D? wow thats cool. seems you are quite smart.
I stopped when i had my master degree.lol
U.K is ok, just very hot these days, which to some extent is good, since i can go out to park/leisure more with my wife and son.

You live there with familly or alone? Hope you enjoy it there. Looking forward ti visit america soon, maybe if i do, we could meet.

 

[Aepsilons]

Awesome, so you are writing your Ph.D? wow thats cool. seems you are quite smart.
I stopped when i had my master degree.lol
U.K is ok, just very hot these days, which to some extent is good, since i can go out to park/leisure more with my wife and son.

You live there with familly or alone? Hope you enjoy it there. Looking forward ti visit america soon, maybe if i do, we could meet.

Surviving lol. I'm also a college instructor
If i survive the dissertation process and get my Ph.D., I'll be considering academic positions here or perhaps going back to Japan and work in corporate sector.

Hoping you and your family are doing great, and do enjoy the summer over there in the UK.