Japan’s Pivot Away from the West Leads Back to China

[LeveragedBuyout]

Why is it so wrong to talk about an East Asian Community? No need to panic, mike.

You're overreacting a bit too extremely.

It would be an interesting development, if a bit ironic (Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, anyone?), but I doubt it will happen. What is the likelihood that China and South Korea will overcome their historical grievances and embrace Japan? Perhaps one, or the other, but for both to do so would be a miracle. Far more likely is a China-South Korea alliance, since China's de facto control of North Korea gives it an entry point into such a relationship.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So forget about Asia for Asians.

Uncle sam is there to stay, short of a revolution(which we all know will not happen).

Like the American Dr Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream".

The American-led West won't rule the world forever, "Asia for Asians" is a great goal to strive for.

 

[MarkusS]

Like the American Dr Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream".

The American-led West won't rule the world forever, "Asia for Asians" is a great goal to strive for.

So you want become a nazi? Asia belongs to me as a european as much as it belongs to you. We live in the 21st century. Spare me your racism.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Like the American Dr Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream".

The American-led West won't rule the world forever, "Asia for Asians" is a great goal to strive for.

Really? Abendländer raus?

 

[Aepsilons]

It would be an interesting development, if a bit ironic (Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, anyone?), but I doubt it will happen. What is the likelihood that China and South Korea will overcome their historical grievances and embrace Japan? Perhaps one, or the other, but for both to do so would be a miracle. Far more likely is a China-South Korea alliance, since China's de facto control of North Korea gives it an entry point into such a relationship.

In the age of European Imperialism, the Europeans once dubbed, "the orientals are inferior to Europeans". That racist presumption was obliterated when the Imperial Japanese Navy , under the command of Admiral Heihachiro Togo, destroyed the Russian Baltic Fleet (the Cream of the Imperial Russian Navy) in the Battle of Tsushima Straits. Of the original Russian Fleet force of 28 battle ships and ships of the line; 21 were sunk . So, if an Asian power was capable of humbling a western force (unheard of in those days), i don't see why not Asian states can work together.

It would be an interesting development, if a bit ironic (Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, anyone?),

Yes, a modern version of a Greater East Asian Co Prosperity Sphere. If the Europeans can form an EU, then I don't see why not East Asia cannot form our own version.

 

[MarkusS]

In the age of European Imperialism, the Europeans once dubbed, "the orientals are inferior to Europeans". That racist presumption was obliterated when the Imperial Japanese Navy , under the command of Admiral Heihachiro Togo, destroyed the Russian Baltic Fleet (the Cream of the Imperial Russian Navy) in the Battle of Tsushima Straits. Of the original Russian Fleet force of 28 battle ships and ships of the line; 21 were sunk . So, if an Asian power was capable of humbling a western force (unheard of in those days), i don't see why not Asian states can work together.



Yes, a modern version of a Greater East Asian Co Prosperity Sphere. If the Europeans can form an EU, then I don't see why not East Asia cannot form our own version.

If you see the japanese fleet victory against russia as "humbling" of a western force, as what do you view Hiroshima?

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

In the age of European Imperialism, the Europeans once dubbed, "the orientals are inferior to Europeans". That racist presumption was obliterated when the Imperial Japanese Navy , under the command of Admiral Heihachiro Togo, destroyed the Russian Baltic Fleet (the Cream of the Imperial Russian Navy) in the Battle of Tsushima Straits. Of the original Russian Fleet force of 28 battle ships and ships of the line; 21 were sunk . So, if an Asian power was capable of humbling a western force (unheard of in those days), i don't see why not Asian states can work together.



Yes, a modern version of a Greater East Asian Co Prosperity Sphere. If the Europeans can form an EU, then I don't see why not East Asia cannot form our own version.

I'm not sure I follow what relevance European bigotry over a century ago has to this topic, or why one country's military strength logically leads to an Asian economic and political union. If I follow your implications, since the EU was created after two devastating world wars, are you suggesting that China, Japan, and South Korea will fight such a devastating war that an Asian Union will appear necessary in order to preserve the peace?

 

[Aepsilons]

Like the American Dr Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream".

The American-led West won't rule the world forever, "Asia for Asians" is a great goal to strive for.

No, I don't subscribe to an 'Asia for Asians' because that was the very kind of semantic that Imperialists in Japan (some 70 years ago) used to usher.

If there is to be some kind of East Asian Community in the future, it will be similar to that of the European Union; where there is a common currency, free trade, migration opportunities, a collective defense.

If you see the japanese fleet victory against russia as "humbling" of a western force, as what do you view Hiroshima?

Japan did not lose to any European power , but lost to the the United States. By July of 1942, the Imperial Navy and Army did the unthinkable and captured the British bastion in Singapore, effectively wiped out the Dutch Malaccas Fleet , and the French Imperial Forces in South East Asia.

Imperial Forces ruled the ocean seas with relative impunity and wiped out any remnant European forces at will.

At that time, the Imperial Navy was second only to the United States, which had the largest naval force.

Even during the years prior to WWII, the firepower of the Imperial Navy had already outdone the Royal Navy, French navy, the Kriegesmarine, and even the Italian navy (lol).

 

[Aepsilons]

I'm not sure I follow what relevance European bigotry over a century ago has to this topic, or why one country's military strength logically leads to an Asian economic and political union. If I follow your implications, since the EU was created after two devastating world wars, are you suggesting that China, Japan, and South Korea will fight such a devastating war that an Asian Union will appear necessary in order to preserve the peace?

When people say that a community within east asia is an impossibility, i like to answer that there is no such thing as impossibility. Some 100 years ago, Europeans thought that East Asians were weak , easily influenced, and that a notion of a powerful East Asian power was an impssibility. This was racist, colonial-mindedness was obliterated when Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese War and then again defeated Germany when we took the Marianas and other islands in WWI (as Japan was an allied power).

If European countries can form an EU , reduce trade tarrifs and barriers, implement a common currency, and allow a favorable migration policy, then i see no reason why Japan, China, South Korea cannot do the same. Afterall our economies are heavily intertwined and there is already a massive transferring population between these 3 countries. Chinese come to Japan in massive numbers, Taiwanese, South Korean and Japanese travel is also high.

So that said, is it wrong to consider , or even ponder a possibility of a East Asian Community? I think not.

Japan , China and South Korea may have trust issues with each other now, but that does not affect our bilateral trade as well as our massive inter-operability in regards to tourism.

I believe it is possible.

My japanese friend, believe me Japan could have been destroyed by any european country and today you are our servant. Your Akihito clown serves to calm the masses and act according to the laws we forced on Japan. Your PM Abe recently did a servant tour through europe. We should leave it that way.

LOL. The economy of Japan is greater than that of Germany, the industrial center of Europe.

And You're Italian. Your country could not even contain Ethiopia. Italy's GNP, GDP does not even come close to my nation's.

My japanese friend, believe me Japan could have been destroyed by any european country and today you are our servant. Your Akihito clown serves to calm the masses and act according to the laws we forced on Japan. Your PM Abe recently did a servant tour through europe. We should leave it that way.

He went because it was a G7 tour , and he came at the behest (or the begging) of Europe for an FTA.

Second, the issue of His Imperial Majesty the Emperor is not related to this. So stay in topic, you Italian troll.

 

[Aepsilons]

My japanese friend, believe me Japan could have been destroyed by any european country and today

You truly have no idea of military and economic processes. The Navy of Japan has the 2nd largest number of DDGs , second only to the United States. Our naval force, today, is greater than any European nation's. Qualitatively and quantitatively.

Second, in WWII, the allied naval force did try to resist the Imperial Japanese Navy and was effectively crushed in the Battle of the Java Sea (1942). An allied naval force (dutch, american, and british) of 2 cruisers, and 12 destroyers engaged the 4th Destroyer Squadron under command of Admiral Takeo Takagi, was crushed. The allied force was wiped out. This happened simultaneously when Singapore , as well as Jakarta collapsed to IJA forces.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

When people say that a community within east asia is an impossibility, i like to answer that there is no such thing as impossibility. Some 100 years ago, Europeans thought that East Asians were weak , easily influenced, and that a notion of a powerful East Asian power was an impssibility. This was racist, colonial-mindedness was obliterated when Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese War and then again defeated Germany when we took the Marianas and other islands in WWI (as Japan was an allied power).

If European countries can form an EU , reduce trade tarrifs and barriers, implement a common currency, and allow a favorable migration policy, then i see no reason why Japan, China, South Korea cannot do the same. Afterall our economies are heavily intertwined and there is already a massive transferring population between these 3 countries. Chinese come to Japan in massive numbers, Taiwanese, South Korean and Japanese travel is also high.

So that said, is it wrong to consider , or even ponder a possibility of a East Asian Community? I think not.

Japan , China and South Korea may have trust issues with each other now, but that does not affect our bilateral trade as well as our massive inter-operability in regards to tourism.

I believe it is possible.

China is far and away the regional power in Asia. I wonder if you could walk me through the motivation for and process by which China agrees to surrender sovereign powers to an Asian Union the same way that European countries have surrendered sovereign powers to the EU institutions. Europe endured two internecine world wars before it decided to form a political-economic union. What will trigger the countries of East Asia to do the same?

 

[mike2000]

It would be an interesting development, if a bit ironic (Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, anyone?), but I doubt it will happen. What is the likelihood that China and South Korea will overcome their historical grievances and embrace Japan? Perhaps one, or the other, but for both to do so would be a miracle. Far more likely is a China-South Korea alliance, since China's de facto control of North Korea gives it an entry point into such a relationship.

I agree with you completely . I dont see the anymosity that china and south Korea have with Japan changing anytime soon. if anything i think it will even increase as both south korea and China grow stronger/faster than Japan. You right on the point that south korea and China alliance is more likely than any Japan-china alliance(which i believe is a distant unconceivable dream.lol). As i said before, if not for the U.S, south Korea and China would have been allied a while ago against Japan.

The hatred the south Koreans have for Japan, is quite huge. I have been to south Korea for a while, and found out that their hatred of Japan is even more deep than China's hatred for Japan. i was surprised by this. This is also because South Korea has almost always been weaker than Japan, coupled with recurrent Japanese invasions/attacks/raids. This led to south Korea seeking a more powerful neigbour in China in the past who was the former patron of the region and of korea. China has mostly been always more powerful than Japan throughout history and south east/east Asia was once sino-centric with chinese civilization being spread to all surrounding countries, so from vietnam to Japan, Chinese culture/writing was adopted by many of these east asian countries. It was only during the decline of the qing dynatsy when China had closed her doors that Japan thinking ahead/wisely ahd opened up and learned/copied from the west and industrialised to take the lead in Asia, so its kind of like China is just retaking its former position now. So obviously there will be frictions.

SO after studying history of this region, i find it quite complex. since there are so many historical issues there, which makes any resolution of conflicts a daunting tasks. The U.S so far has done a quite good job of keeping the region peaceful.

 

[Aepsilons]

1st your country has not even its own army.

2nd your country has no children

3rd Your country has the highest debt in the world

4th your "imperial majesty" has no empire and does not even hold any power. He is pretty short for an emperor. It looks like he could not even reach my belt.

Japan is our property and this is good for Japan. Having japan as controlled nation is important for global strategy. And no, Abe was not invited. He came to EU twice in short time to get support against china. Its a bit embarassing...

This is not trolling but a simple fact. I actually like Japan.

Actually, one of the major agendas was to plead for an FTA with Japan. Right now Europe is suffering a massive trade imbalance with Japan.

 

[MarkusS]

Actually, one of the major agendas was to plead for an FTA with Japan. Right now Europe is suffering a massive trade imbalance with Japan.

One of his main goals was gaining support for senkaku islands, which he failed. You largely overestimate the importance of Japan in our politics.

As for WW, europe had the nuclear bomb ready shortly after USA. You would have been nuked so or so.

 

[Aepsilons]

China is far and away the regional power in Asia. I wonder if you could walk me through the motivation for and process by which China agrees to surrender sovereign powers to an Asian Union the same way that European countries have surrendered sovereign powers to the EU institutions. Europe endured two internecine world wars before it decided to form a political-economic union. What will trigger the countries of East Asia to do the same?

@LeveragedBuyout

There are , indeed, some barriers in East Asia , but I don't believe that these barriers, namely are based on nationalism, cannot be overcome. From my many visits and trips to East Asia , my impression was that there really is no general animosity with each other, but rather cooperation and even admiration for each other. When I was in Guangzhou couple of years back, i had the pleasure to meet and making Chinese friends there , and they expressed an awe and admiration for Japanese culture, which i can say is expressed by Japanese towards Chinese culture. In general, speaking as a Japanese , we do think positively of China and Chinese culture. It was just in 2009 that talks of an East Asian Community was even touted by one of our Prime Ministers.

Right now, it is evident that China will soon eclipse the United States economy. And in fact, the bilateral trade between Japan and China is as significant as the trade between Japan and the United States. This is why i believe it is important for Japan to not only bolster its defense capability, but also to build better relations with our east asian and south east asian partners. Which is happening now.

Personally, i believe that reconciliation between China and Japan is necessary and righteously deserved.

One of his main goals was gaining support for senkaku islands, which he failed. You largely overestimate the importance of Japan in our politics.

As for WW, europe had the nuclear bomb ready shortly after USA. You would have been nuked so or so.

Europe was under the heels of Nazi Germany, then the ally of Japanese Empire.

LOL