What's new

Japan's Abe to change post-war constitution

Not sure if these are relevant:
Famine in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bengal famine of 1770 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (happened due to East India company policies)
Bengal famine of 1943 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (mainly due to wartime scorched earth policy by the British to stop Japanese advance)

This is not about famine but rather some Chinese in the forum claiming moral high ground on japan which made me put forward comments about what their leader have done to their people , they have their fact and we have others.

here you go e.g

The 100 Worst Wars, Genocides and Dictators in History: 10 Bloodiest

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Mao

Tough luck to them, facts are facts

The irony is how incredible naive some are
 
.
You are twisting facts! I have strengthened my argument and at the same time destroying your wishful thinking by adding more history of wars that happened in China!

During the Korean war we ( PLA+DPRK) drove the US led allies out of the 38 parallel. Again the millions you quoted pale in a very large extent to the no under the indian administration since independence

It was you who started all these shyt trying to put down China and now the facts and figures should mire you in the dirt

What Wombat is trying to do is portraying Mao as the biggest murder in history using the most fatalities as argument. It doesn't matter to him whether there's a difference between being invaded by foreign troops or bad internal policies regarding agriculture. To him and many more the number of total deaths combined together of The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution (2 separate policies) matters. So to him there's no distinction between two different subjects. If so then shouldn't we start counting how many people Imperial Japanese forces have killed (Chinese, Koreans, Philippines, Vietnamese, Thai, Malaysians, Cambodians, Indonesians, Americans etc..) or how many people died under Nazi forces?

Sorry but Wombat has not given us a definition of the biggest murder in history. He used the word genocide, let us focus on that word.

Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2] While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

Notice the word "deliberate" ? Cultural Revolution was a deliberate act of purging the wealthy class, Great Leap Foward is not because what Mao wanted was to industrialize after the country was in ruins because of foreign invasions by the Western powers and Japanese forces. So he moved most of the farmers into industrial jobs as a result not enough food was produced and the country ended up in famine.
 
.
What Wombat is trying to do is portraying Mao as the biggest murder in history using the most fatalities as argument. It doesn't matter to him whether there's a difference between being invaded by foreign troops or bad internal policies regarding agriculture. To him and many more the number of total deaths combined together of The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution (2 separate policies) matters. So to him there's no distinction between two different subjects. If so then shouldn't we start counting how many people Imperial Japanese forces have killed (Chinese, Koreans, Philippines, Vietnamese, Thai, Malaysians, Cambodians, Indonesians, Americans etc..) or how many people died under Nazi forces?

Sorry but Wombat has not given us a definition of the biggest murder in history. He used the word genocide, let us focus on that word.

Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2] While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).

Notice the word "deliberate" ? Cultural Revolution was a deliberate act of purging the wealthy class, Great Leap Foward is not because what Mao wanted was to industrialize after the country was in ruins because of foreign invasions by the Western powers and Japanese forces. So he moved most of the farmers into industrial jobs as a result not enough food was produced and the country ended up in famine.

Yes i am trying to prove you that Mao policies ended many life , like i said earlier many many time you got your facts , the rest of us have our facts.

I have made my statement based on historical evidence have found ,

We don't have to met, people can make up their own mind
 
.
Yes i am trying to prove you that Mao policies ended many life , like i said earlier many many time you got your facts , the rest of us have our facts.

We don't have to met, people can make you their own mind

You do not have to proof to me or any Chinese, because we all are aware that plenty of Chinese had died. You however have failed to proof to everyone what the definition of genocide is and how many people have died by the Japanese. You can't give us a proper undisputed meaning of the biggest murderer in history. So to me you are the naive one, with the way you argue you can't possible win the debate against all the Chinese around the world. You only use some sites for reference to proof 30-70 million had died because of Mao. Is the number proven? I use wikipedia and even they mentioned authors have lower estimates. But to me genocide is not only about numbers, it's also about the definition to it. Show us some facts how many people the Japanese forces or Nazi forces had murdered, if you can't even do that then you have no right to say Chinese people are naive. When you want a serious debate and using reliable sources people will agree you have made good points but so far you have not given us any of it. Everyone can say Mao was responsible for 100 millions of deaths.
 
.
People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975):

Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M

Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths

Brzezinski:
Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
Daniel Chirot:
Land reform, 1949-56
According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M

Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:
Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
Gilbert:
1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
Cited by G & P:
Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
(NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)


Guinness Book of World Records:
Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:

On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
Harff and Gurr:
KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
R. J. Rummel:
Estimate:
Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
The principle episodes being...
All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
War: 3,399,000
Famine: 34,500,000
Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
TOTAL: 72,260,000
Cited in Rummel:
Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.

Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M

July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
Cong Jin: 40 million
Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.

Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
"If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
"Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)

The 100 Worst Wars, Genocides and Dictators in History: 10 Bloodiest
 
.
Go on spin this !!!!! , nobody wins here .. its innocent Chinese who died, spin it whichever way u want !!!
 
.
Go on spin this !!!!! , nobody wins here .. its innocent Chinese who died, spin it whichever way want !!!

go on spinning the figures on Mao

and more innocent indians have died.

At the under 5 year-old category ALONE:65* 2 mio/year=130 mio deaths or more!

death caused by War and genocide are evil motives = japanese =/= Mao's

death caused by man-made errors and poor jugement in administration = indian administration >>>>> Mao's administration
 
.
This guy doesn't have the guts to show us numbers how many people Japanese soldiers have murdered. Only hammering on Mao citing sources with figures varying few millions to 70 millions. There's a difference between starved to death and killed. Some of the sources mentioned 20 millions of Chinese killed. I think the ones shouting this don't know the difference between starving to death or being killed. There's no need to argue with him, he favors the Japanese side in my opinion by showing a link of Japanese apologies (which i proved they weren't sincere apologies), trying to say Mao murdered more Chinese than Japanese did. Talks about genocide but doesn't know the meaning of it. Clearly avoiding it.
 
.
I didn't want to say this .. tough luck to you all , in war people die , get off you moral horse get used to it , you be la la land if you think Japan is going to apologies again for war crimes
 
.
I didn't want to say this .. tough luck to you all , in war people die , get off you moral horse get used to it , you be la la land if you think Japan is going to apologies again for war crimes

you are crazy! dont elevate the japanese to a level much above of what they deserve because of their american backing!

No apologies? the bashing on the japanese will go on!
 
.
I didn't want to say this .. tough luck to you all , in war people die , get off you moral horse get used to it , you be la la land if you think Japan is going to apologies again for war crimes

Really? I just didn't know that. Is the whole genocide thing part of war too?
 
.
See i told you he is pro Japanese, trying to derail now with a lousy argument. Yeah people die in a war ain't that right..
 
.
Really? I just didn't know that. Is the whole genocide thing part of war too?

no really , :coffee:, it ended up that way !! the intention was to prove its still categorized as genocide by history ( regardless of what you guys think).

according to historical evidence both what Japanese and Mao did are categorized as similar , crimes against humanity

And if history puts Mao cruelty above what Japanese did, perhaps not fair to the Chinese but you cant undo that .

now please, I don't have to strength to do this all over again ,
 
.
This guy is hilarious, "historical evidence" proofs moving farmers to industrial work that led to famine are categorized as crimes against humanity that is equally the same as shooting, decapitating, stabbing humans with bayonet. What a sad creature that is.
 
.
the funny thing is the west always compares Mao with Hitler and Stalin,I personally believe to some aspect it's a kind of compliment,Stalin defeated Nazi Germany and saved millions of Jews and peoples who were enduring Nazi persecution and cold blood murder on daily basis,USSR was the single deciding fator of WW2,US only joined in when Germany's defeat was almost a sure thing.if USSR was on the losing side I really doubt that US would join the war at all,at least not for the European part.so in this case,Stalin saved the whole world.
so comparing Mao with Stalin and Hitler can only show how much the west fear him.thus prove that he was a great man,maybe he was a monster also,but anyway he was a great man.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom