Japan to Develop 6th Generation Fighter With US Help

[Suika]

those aren't tactical aircraft. they're transports or trainers. the performance is very different because their requirements are different i.e. tactical aircraft requires maneuverability and speed, transports require fuel efficiency. the shaping requirements are likewise very different.

The P-1 is a tactical aircraft. It can launch anti-ship missiles. And recent images shown new anti-ship missiles being developed with 4 of them mounted on the P-1.

Also, Japan has been carrying out its own modernization of the F-15Js with new sensors and battle systems. Japan has also carried out upgrades of F-2s to include multi-mission capability and improved precision ground attack abilities that goes in a cooperative manner with the Japanese Ground SDF. And Japan has developed missiles for these aircraft, both AAM and AShM. So Japan has experience with work in fighter aircraft too actually. You think Japan hasn't done any upgrades to those fighters after procuring them all this time?

And more point is the X-2 tech demonstrator integrates thrust vectoring engines. Obviously this aircraft was used to acquire new data for flight control. There was a defense symposium in 2014 about the fighter jet engine development. A two vector paddle demonstrator was tested in the mid 1990s. Later around 2010 or so, 3 vector paddle was tested. Video of the 2 paddle test in the link. Picture is of the three paddle test.
http://dragoner-jp.blogspot.com/2014/11/2014_13.html

Here's video of footage of the X-2 doing some flight testing in 2016.

 

[KAL-EL]

If it was up to me (which it obviously isn’t) Japan would get all the help it needs to accomplish this goal.

 

[gambit]

lol sure. that's why you copy/paste Wikipedia articles instead of demonstrating any inside knowledge, because you're an expert, instead of someone that's been washed out of the industry for 20+ years if you were ever in it in the first place. you mentioned something about you being some equipment installation technician?

I have proven my semicon experience with one of you who used to work for Intel fab 68 Dalian before 68 changed to being a NAND facility. See if you can find out who it is.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I have proven my semicon experience with one of you who used to work for Intel fab 68 Dalian before 68 changed to being a NAND facility. See if you can find out who it is.

the ****? do I know every Chinese dude that works in semiconductors and allied fields? its like me telling you to look for a Viet guy at Lam Research.

 

[gambit]

the ****? do I know every Chinese dude that works in semiconductors and allied fields? its like me telling you to look for a Viet guy at Lam Research.

No, the guy is a member of this forum. His handle starts with a 'D'.

Edit: My mistake, his handle have 'KS'. He used to be in Diffusion and Wet Etch.

 

[grey boy 2]

the ****? do I know every Chinese dude that works in semiconductors and allied fields? its like me telling you to look for a Viet guy at Lam Research.

NO need to take that old viet too seriously, from my observation here since i join this forum the same yr as him, he had a track record of making up some absurd resume like
1st=fanboy of military stuff (he used to be honest) back in 2009
2nd=ground crew
3rd=martial arts specialist
4th=pilot or crew member in steath bomber and fighter jet
5th=engineer that specially at training CHINESE lol
NO need to trust my words, do check out his old posting if he havn't deleted it yet

 

[gambit]

NO need to take that old viet too seriously, from my observation here since i join this forum the same yr as him, he had a track record of making up some absurd resume like

And yet, not one of you can disprove what I said.

 

[grey boy 2]

And yet, not one of you can disprove what I said.

Neither can you disprove what i said about you as well, NO?

 

[gambit]

Neither can you disprove what i said about you as well, NO?

What you said about me cannot be proved nor disproved. On the other hand, what I said about many technical issues which includes debunking Chinese claims none of you can challenge. In that arena, I proved myself more than once.

 

[rott]

what is industrial design applications?

Do your own homework, bro. Don't be lazy.

NO need to take that old viet too seriously, from my observation here since i join this forum the same yr as him, he had a track record of making up some absurd resume like
1st=fanboy of military stuff (he used to be honest) back in 2009
2nd=ground crew
3rd=martial arts specialist
4th=pilot or crew member in steath bomber and fighter jet
5th=engineer that specially at training CHINESE lol
NO need to trust my words, do check out his old posting if he havn't deleted it yet

You forgot about being a janitor.

 

[UKBengali]

Sometimes senior members of a forums try to mediate two sides (regardless whether or not one side is trolling) just for the sake of fostering posting. Sorry to apply the suspicion here, but I've seen that a lot up until now.

My previous post shows that Japan has the engine. So assistance from the US for the engine is not necessary.

Furthermore, Japan demonstrated stealth material capability in a stealth testing facility in France with a mock up. Japan originally asked the US to conduct the stealth test but the US declined to offer, so Japan went to France. It was back in 2007/2008. US assistance might help make the stealth quality a little better. But that's a might, we don't know. Stealth is a big topic on its own.

Yep I did try to reason with the poster but he could not even bring himself to admit that Japan, that is both far far richer and has a much better base than either S Korea or Turkey, would have far greater chance of being successful in developing a next-gen fighter than those two countries.

Chinese posters seem to think that 5 trillion US dollar GDP Japan with a defence budget of 50 billion US dollars cannot afford the 20 or so billion US dollars into developing this fighter. Are they not even aware that Japan has already sunk many billions of dollars into developing the stealth tech, engines and demonstrator plane? Rich Japan can afford the 1 billion or so US dollars a year between now and the mid-2030s to get this plane ready for production.

I take your points about Japan having all the capabilities to make the F-3 a success but I must disagree that it will be say on the same level as the UK/Sweden's Tempest fighter if that is what Japan is aiming for. Simply the UK/Sweden have far greater experience in nearly all aspects of fighter aircraft design apart from radars, airframe and missiles which Japan can match them in my opinion.

If Japan wants the best of the best then it needs to get help from the US in engines and stealth tech, if it is happy with a "good" fighter that is just one step below "cutting-edge" then of course it can go by itself.

 

[UKBengali]

@Suika

I have just read an article and it looks like Japan would be using the F-3 to replace both the F-2 and also the newer-build F-15Js?

If this is the way it turns out and Japan looks at replacing one to one, then the Japanese production of F-3 could run up to 250 planes, which would be a decent number to achieve some economies of scale and so help to keep the cost down a little. Even then the development cost per plane would be something like 100 million US dollars.
Japan should look at selling it to countries like Vietnam to recoup at least some of the development costs.

F-2 was so expensive as Japan only built around 100 of them.

 

[Suika]

@Suika

I have just read an article and it looks like Japan would be using the F-3 to replace both the F-2 and also the newer-build F-15Js?

If this is the way it turns out and Japan looks at replacing one to one, then the Japanese production of F-3 could run up to 250 planes, which would be a decent number to achieve some economies of scale and so help to keep the cost down a little. Even then the development cost per plane would be something like 100 million US dollars.
Japan should look at selling it to countries like Vietnam to recoup at least some of the development costs.

F-2 was so expensive as Japan only built around 100 of them.

Hello UKBengali,

I think I read have read an article, a National Interest article, speculating that as well.

It certainly possible. Initially, Japan had about 200 F-15Js to form the role as strong air-superiority which was then. As you may know, the 100 non-modernized F-15Js will be replaced by F-35As and F-35Bs while the modernized F-15Js are to be further upgraded to include multi-role ground attack ability. Upgrading them for multi-role is probably two points, one it expands the roles the JSDF can do with multi-role ground attack which would probably have triggered "too offensive in nature" before the reinterpretation of the constitution in 2014 but also F-15Js are just not going to be very superior in their original role of air-superiority anymore. So it may make sense that Japan produces more F-3s than the "about 100 planned" amount in the end.

But there's one other advantage of the vintage F-15Js over the F-3s in my opinion. It's for scrambles. Japan scrambles jets a lot because China and Russia often fly their military aircraft towards Japanese air space in recent years. For example, in Naha air base, 20 F-15Js were stationed, but in order to deal with the increasing frequency of PLAAF aircraft activity, the number of F-15Js was doubled to 40, in 2016 if I remember correctly. They rarely intrude territorial airspace, but that is only 22km or something beyond land territory, so jets need to be scrambled ahead of that since opposing jets could cross 22km in a very short time. With so much scrambling, maintenance becomes a very important part. It's probably safe to say that the F-15Js are much easier to maintain than what would become expensive stealth F-3s. Another point is if F-3s are always being scrambled, then it gives the opposing aircraft a lot of chances to practice detecting F-3s and a better idea how to develop improved detection methods against F-3. So better to not be using the F-3 for the role of scrambling. But since even after the modernized F-15Js get their next upgrades for multi-role, they are still going to become old and so I was thinking that maybe F-15X might be worth Japan to look into since it looks like the USAF is going to pick some of these up.

But your point about increasing production total so as to reduce cost per aircraft is a true point. Actually, I think this may have been a real beneficial point if Japan had joined the Tempest program. If I recall correctly, the Tempest program has the UK, Italy, and Sweden so far. That's perhaps 300 fighters right there. Add in Japan, then its 400 if Japan sticks with the "about 100". 500 if Japan goes for 200 in the end. F-2 was really expensive because the US side was a bit of a haggler then it cost went up more than necessary. But that was the 1990s and the SU had just collapsed and China had a small GDP and outdated military. In the current geopolitical landscape, the US may not haggle so much in the F-3 program.

But it does look like the UK-Japan joint effort for a new AAM is under way which will combine UK thruster missile technology like that on the meteor missile with Japan's seeker technology. Should result in a very potent AAM. The F-3 weapon bays will no doubt be designed to load these.

 

[gambit]

You forgot about being a janitor.

In this forum? Yes, I am. Someone has to clean up after you guys' BS.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/04/23/japan-to-develop-6th-generation-fighter-with-us-help/

Japan will be developing its next-generation fighter jet, the Mitsubishi F-3, in conjunction with American companies. The F-3 is set to replace the currently serving Mitsubishi F-2 starting in the 2030s.

Japanese Air Self-Defense Force Mitsubishi F-2
In the last few years, there have been rumours of a possible UK-Japan joint development program for the F-3, but an article recently published by Japanese news outlet Sankei News suggests the Japanese government has chosen not to continue working with British companies. It did this over concerns related to other countries’ participation in the development of Britain’s own 6th gen fighter, the Tempest, and concerns of future interoperability issues with US military equipment.

A model of the Tempest at DSEI 2019
Interoperability between the US military and the Japanese Self-Defense Forces is a cornerstone of the two nations’ defense strategies in the region. The F-3 will be Japan’s first indigenously produced stealth aircraft, and design assistance from the US will certainly make the integration of American weapons to the aircraft much easier. Another key area of integration is the aircraft’s ability to share the “picture” created by its sensors with friendly aircraft, especially with Airborne Early Warning and Control (AWACS). The data collected by the advanced sensors of 5th gen jets like the F-35 already provides a massive boost in the situational awareness of the AWACS, which in turn increases the situational awareness and therefore effectiveness of all friendly aircraft that can talk to the AWACS.

The ability to contribute so massively to the efforts of all aircraft in their area of operations is perhaps the greatest feature 5th gen jets bring to the table, and fighters of the 6th generation will without a doubt only improve in this regard.

you gotta give them something for buying all the US treasury bills.