Japan seeks defence ties with Asean

[PITA]

Fine, everything should be like that here.
But in diplomatic section, everything will continue, and just wait for event.

Maybe I was unclear. What I mean is that I don't have all the answers to all the questions so it is not in my interest to deal with every what-if. Vietnam must ultimate choose the destiny she wants and China is the same. If what some say is true and that China will increase her influence and the west regresses then it changes the way she acted in the past. If it is not her destiny, maybe things will be different.

In the past, maybe she was didn't want an excuse to have more sanctions. Maybe she felt that it's time to grow and not confront. But time changes all things and I don't want to get into scenarios. In the end, feuding neighbors must feud or find a diplomatic solution and back down. There is no making friends while threatening with arms.

 

[Zero_wing]

What good is having a spear and shield if one doesn't have the energy to hold it up? That's, what I believe, jhungry was alluding to.

In the game of nations, there are smaller countries and there are bigger countries. That's just an unfair fact that nobody on this board can change. If country A deploys arms against country B, country B can stand down, match, or up the stakes. Eventually, there will be too much risk for one side to continue. It's not hard to see how this game will be played out in this case. One country can play this game all day, the other can't. Therefore, a country can lose on a battlefield or lose politically and economically, à la North Korea. Either way achieves the same result and that is a weakening of the opponent.

My hope is that a diplomatic solution can be reached because, god help us, if a day comes when there is a way (likely), millions will suffer again. Pick any war and it's ultimately the civilian population that suffers the most and that has always been an undeniable constant and universal truth.

So stop being an Imperialist country then follow International law then alam mo na man pala (See you know that truth to be true)

What good is having a spear and shield if one doesn't have the energy to hold it up? That's, what I believe, jhungry was alluding to.

In the game of nations, there are smaller countries and there are bigger countries. That's just an unfair fact that nobody on this board can change. If country A deploys arms against country B, country B can stand down, match, or up the stakes. Eventually, there will be too much risk for one side to continue. It's not hard to see how this game will be played out in this case. One country can play this game all day, the other can't. Therefore, a country can lose on a battlefield or lose politically and economically, à la North Korea. Either way achieves the same result and that is a weakening of the opponent.

My hope is that a diplomatic solution can be reached because, god help us, if a day comes when there is a way (likely), millions will suffer again. Pick any war and it's ultimately the civilian population that suffers the most and that has always been an undeniable constant and universal truth.

So stop being an Imperialist country then follow International law then alam mo na man pala (See you know that truth to be true)

 

[PITA]

WTF do I have anything to do with it?

If you want to play it that way then okay, then stop being a small country next to a big country. That's the way the world works. Deal with it.

 

[Soryu]

Maybe I was unclear. What I mean is that I don't have all the answers to all the questions so it is not in my interest to deal with every what-if. Vietnam must ultimate choose the destiny she wants and China is the same. If what some say is true and that China will increase her influence and the west regresses then it changes the way she acted in the past. If it is not her destiny, maybe things will be different.

In the past, maybe she was didn't want an excuse to have more sanctions. Maybe she felt that it's time to grow and not confront. But time changes all things and I don't want to get into scenarios. In the end, feuding neighbors must feud or find a diplomatic solution and back down. There is no making friends while threatening with arms.

Your though are same to me. I mean in my words that in future, the answer will come.
Well, in personal, I hope and think Vietnam and China would be true brothers in future, though We were brothers in history with all wars amd conflicts.

 

[zxmint]

Your though are same to me. I mean in my words that in future, the answer will come.
Well, in personal, I hope and think Vietnam and China would be true brothers in future, though We were brothers in history with all wars amd conflicts.

It would be your well being if every Viets think in your way. It is just normal that our neighbors feel nervous when China grow stronger and stronger, especially those which have territory dispute with us. And US just take advantage of this kind of thoughts.
Chinese people used to feel angry that even small countries like Philippines and Vietnam dare to arrest and even kill our fishermen in South China sea and our government cannot do anything but protest. This kind of thing should only happened in Late Qing Dynasty, not in 1990's! What will American people feel when their fishermen were expelled and killed by Cost rica government? And it happened that this two countries have dispute territories? Americans will be very likely to start a war immediately. But we know we have to suffer these humiliations, cuz we are eagerly developing ourselves and waiting for our days back. In this world, only power speaks.

 

[EastSea]

It would be your well being if every Viets think in your way. It is just normal that our neighbors feel nervous when China grow stronger and stronger, especially those which have territory dispute with us. And US just take advantage of this kind of thoughts.
Chinese people used to feel angry that even small countries like Philippines and Vietnam dare to arrest and even kill our fishermen in South China sea and our government cannot do anything but protest. This kind of thing should only happened in Late Qing Dynasty, not in 1990's! What will American people feel when their fishermen were expelled and killed by Cost rica government? And it happened that this two countries have dispute territories? Americans will be very likely to start a war immediately. But we know we have to suffer these humiliations, cuz we are eagerly developing ourselves and waiting for our days back. In this world, only power speaks.

Chinese stop lie. Paracel Islands belong to Vietnam from ancient time, China robbed with force 1974. Chinese are dirty aggressors.
March 25, Vietnam protested the actions of some Chinese ships in chasing and firing on a Vietnamese fishing boat fishing in Vietnamese waters off its Hoang Sa (Paracel) archipelago.

 

[Soryu]

It would be your well being if every Viets think in your way. It is just normal that our neighbors feel nervous when China grow stronger and stronger, especially those which have territory dispute with us. And US just take advantage of this kind of thoughts.
Chinese people used to feel angry that even small countries like Philippines and Vietnam dare to arrest and even kill our fishermen in South China sea and our government cannot do anything but protest. This kind of thing should only happened in Late Qing Dynasty, not in 1990's! What will American people feel when their fishermen were expelled and killed by Cost rica government? And it happened that this two countries have dispute territories? Americans will be very likely to start a war immediately. But we know we have to suffer these humiliations, cuz we are eagerly developing ourselves and waiting for our days back. In this world, only power speaks.

You mistake! I admit mighty of China, but it's not meaning admit some of you guys arrogant.

Vietnam is not equal to China for sure because its size, but Vietnamese is equal with Chinese. So when you act and speak with arrogant to us, We will respond to you in same way, slap some stupid heads wake up when they think that they know everything and others didn't know.

You think China right, we're bad side and being used by US against PRC!?
LOL, like SCS topic, If you think we knees at before US, so it's same on you case, no difference, even big or small or anything bullshjt.

A guy said Vietnam betrayed China, but when I give him timeline events, he stop his mouth and ran away.

"We can become friend and brother, when we can stop arrogant and stupid".

 

[kalu_miah]

I predicted it here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/180755-geopolitics-asean-region-15.html

 

[zxmint]

You mistake! I admit mighty of China, but it's not meaning admit some of you guys arrogant.

Vietnam is not equal to China for sure because its size, but Vietnamese is equal with Chinese. So when you act and speak with arrogant to us, We will respond to you in same way, slap some stupid heads wake up when they think that they know everything and others didn't know.

You think China right, we're bad side and being used by US against PRC!?
LOL, like SCS topic, If you think we knees at before US, so it's same on you case, no difference, even big or small or anything bullshjt.

A guy said Vietnam betrayed China, but when I give him timeline events, he stop his mouth and ran away.

"We can become friend and brother, when we can stop arrogant and stupid".

I'd like to talk with you a little deeper. Yeah, we common people have no reason to hate each others. We should be friends. But as to two countries, well, no one is willing to give up its occupied property, especially territories. And when two or several countries claim sovereignty on a single area, here comes the problem. So to be honest what do you think will make sense in this kind of international dispute? Some people may think we Chinese are too arrogant and aggressive in the internet, but we are just talking about what we really think how this world works, and that is definitely what westerners vividly taught us by invasion and humiliation in the past 150 years! No country will respect you just because you are "kind", in international relationships, 'respectable' means 'powerful'. And sometimes you need to show strength to make people believe that. Just like what Americans like to say: show strength, and then negotiate.

It is the worlds' most funny joke that westerners blame Chinese for their jungle rule faith.

 

[zxmint]

Chinese stop lie. Paracel Islands belong to Vietnam from ancient time, China robbed with force 1974. Chinese are dirty aggressors.
March 25, Vietnam protested the actions of some Chinese ships in chasing and firing on a Vietnamese fishing boat fishing in Vietnamese waters off its Hoang Sa (Paracel) archipelago.

These two pictures only indicate the boat was on fire then, nothing else. You know what, territory only decided by power, nothing else. When China was weak, we lost some territories, and when China wake up, we would certainly get what belongs to us. If the government don't do that, it will be overturned by Chinese people. So, if you feel being bullied, we can do nothing help but feel sorry for that. Just open your eyes and face to the fact. Who is not being bullied in this world? How many times did US bully China then? Did we cry for unfairness?

 

[kalu_miah]

Japan seeking defence ties with ASEAN may not be bad news for China. Here is my logic on this:

- Japan currently depends on the US for its security, this arrangement was imposed on Japan after its defeat in WW II, Japan lived with this arrangement since neighbor powers like China was weak and did not pose a threat
- with China's rise, Japan feels that the US may not be enough to provide it security, if it continues to stay in the US camp, so there is a need to seek other alliances such as ASEAN who are the only nearby countries in the neighborhood who have affinity and close relationship with Japan
- this means that Japan is diversifying and is no longer going to depend on the US as sole security guarantee
- why is this a good thing for China? It is because this is the beginning of the end of US presence (bases) in East Asia
- here is how it will play out, Japan and S Korea will both develop stronger economic and military ties with ASEAN
- initially China will be upset, but it will learn slowly that a ASEAN+2 is a good thing for China
- ASEAN+2 with China's help will develop ASEAN region with participation of all three east Asian powers, China, Japan and South Korea
- a developed ASEAN will mean that Japan and South Korea's security dependence on the US will reduce every year
- in 20 years, when China reaches parity with the US as a global power, both Japan and South Korea will accept ASEAN+2 moving under SCO security bloc and dumping the US, but all depends on China's diplomatic foresight, skill and performance, to make this happen
- eventually in about 30 years, the only nearby remaining US base will be in Australia
- a highly integrated and conflict free Asia will be good for all Asians

 

[Soryu]

I'd like to talk with you a little deeper. Yeah, we common people have no reason to hate each others. We should be friends. But as to two countries, well, no one is willing to give up its occupied property, especially territories. And when two or several countries claim sovereignty on a single area, here comes the problem. So to be honest what do you think will make sense in this kind of international dispute? Some people may think we Chinese are too arrogant and aggressive in the internet, but we are just talking about what we really think how this world works, and that is definitely what westerners vividly taught us by invasion and humiliation in the past 150 years! No country will respect you just because you are "kind", in international relationships, 'respectable' means 'powerful'. And sometimes you need to show strength to make people believe that. Just like what Americans like to say: show strength, and then negotiate.

It is the worlds' most funny joke that westerners blame Chinese for their jungle rule faith.

Oh, god man!
So tell me what's China's base claim territories in SCS? History records? Occupied by military forces from other!? Is it reality and legal?

So American teach you somethings you didn't know? And now you know about those bullshjt, and want become like that!? ( So what's bullshjt about China history, when her became big country 'cause war and invasions. You said China didn't know what's invasion and robbery, huh? )
You want become like US, but you blame US and others that some nations against your action! LOL
If you think like that, so what's crap you talking about right or wrong at SCS in here and SCS topic?
Just spoke out the truth that you want!

You saying crap again, international or not, human kind was not respect each other just by power, that's how common sense of this world. If power was above everything else, so no need for morality or respect.

These two pictures only indicate the boat was on fire then, nothing else. You know what, territory only decided by power, nothing else. When China was weak, we lost some territories, and when China wake up, we would certainly get what belongs to us. If the government don't do that, it will be overturned by Chinese people. So, if you feel being bullied, we can do nothing help but feel sorry for that. Just open your eyes and face to the fact. Who is not being bullied in this world? How many times did US bully China then? Did we cry for unfairness?

Oh god man! If you said "territory only decided by power", So what's bullshjt "we would certainly get what belongs to us"?

You see it, you want it, you claim it, you have power and it's belong to you?

So what's f*cking chinese said "王道中华" in China's Dream? (Liu Mingfu). You so funny

 

[Soryu]

Japan seeking defence ties with ASEAN may not be bad news for China. Here is my logic on this:

We will accept China when she become strong and GOOD enough

 

[zxmint]

Oh, god man!
So tell me what's China's base claim territories in SCS? History records? Occupied by military forces from other!? Is it reality and legal?

So American teach you somethings you didn't know? And now you know about those bullshjt, and want become like that!? ( So what's bullshjt about China history, when her became big country 'cause war and invasions. You said China didn't know what's invasion and robbery, huh? )
You want become like US, but you blame US and others that some nations against your action! LOL
If you think like that, so what's crap you talking about right or wrong at SCS in here and SCS topic?
Just spoke out the truth that you want!

You saying crap again, international or not, human kind was not respect each other just by power, that's how common sense of this world. If power was above everything else, so no need for morality or respect.

Oh god man! If you said "territory only decided by power", So what's bullshjt "we would certainly get what belongs to us"?

You see it, you want it, you claim it, you have power and it's belong to you?

So what's f*cking chinese said "王道中华" in China's Dream? (Liu Mingfu). You so funny

I am talking about International relationships, not interpersonal ones. There is no such a word called morality between countries. Anyway, if you really so childish to think that morality works between countries, then why did you betray us 30 years ago? We were so stupid to do our best to help you expel French and Americans. Since soon after that, you use China -aid- rice as machine gun shelters and use free weapons sent by China without charging anything to shoot our people who lived in the frontier. A traitor who know nothing about thanksgiving, that is what Chinese people feel like what Vietnam is. So how shameless you are to talk about morality with me?

As to territory, China government's sovereignty claim is always consistent. At least so far China has been quite restraining itself to use military force to get back our islands which are occupied by other countries illegally. OK, if you also claim sovereignty, then it makes no sense that we argue here in the internet, it can change nothing.

We will accept China when she become strong and GOOD enough

Yes, we were even not GOOD enough to aid Viet selflessly to expel French and Americans for a return like this.

 

[zxmint]

Japan seeking defence ties with ASEAN may not be bad news for China. Here is my logic on this:

- Japan currently depends on the US for its security, this arrangement was imposed on Japan after its defeat in WW II, Japan lived with this arrangement since neighbor powers like China was weak and did not pose a threat
- with China's rise, Japan feels that the US may not be enough to provide it security, if it continues to stay in the US camp, so there is a need to seek other alliances such as ASEAN who are the only nearby countries in the neighborhood who have affinity and close relationship with Japan
- this means that Japan is diversifying and is no longer going to depend on the US as sole security guarantee
- why is this a good thing for China? It is because this is the beginning of the end of US presence (bases) in East Asia
- here is how it will play out, Japan and S Korea will both develop stronger economic and military ties with ASEAN
- initially China will be upset, but it will learn slowly that a ASEAN+2 is a good thing for China
- ASEAN+2 with China's help will develop ASEAN region with participation of all three east Asian powers, China, Japan and South Korea
- a developed ASEAN will mean that Japan and South Korea's security dependence on the US will reduce every year
- in 20 years, when China reaches parity with the US as a global power, both Japan and South Korea will accept ASEAN+2 moving under SCO security bloc and dumping the US, but all depends on China's diplomatic foresight, skill and performance, to make this happen
- eventually in about 30 years, the only nearby remaining US base will be in Australia
- a highly integrated and conflict free Asia will be good for all Asians

You point out one critical thing: the interference of US is the source of instability of Asia. But US would not allow Japan to do so if it is harmful for US hegemony. And Japanese can get no response from ASEAN countries other than Philippines and Vietnam. China is far more important to ASEAN economies.