Janes: India withdraws from FGFA project, leaving Russia to go it alone

[Thanatos]

On a serious note, no matter what indians say , Russia and India are no more strategic partners and this has nothing to do with Pakistan. Its just that India has changed its Masters. However I do believe that Future belongs to China and Russia and India will once again find itself standing on the wrong side of history.

 

[Papa Dragon]

SH!T bruv! Russia is really doomed! You are so right.

LOL this is excellent news. India was always going to backstab Russia.

The way I see it. One man's misery is another man's opportunity.

Pakistan should definitely cash in

We've been loyal to Russia all along and made sure we prioritize them when it comes it any major defense acquisition. We pumped in $295m into the initial design phase and the Russians took our money but didn't let us participate in the project. Our pilots weren't even allowed to fly the prototypes nor verify them up-close and this raised doubts of the stealth capabilities and the centralized sensor fusion integration technologies of the plane which is primarily what 5th gen is about.

Moreover, the engine is still in testing phase and they've been using an underpowered version which is used on the Su-35. Even if we go ahead with the deal, it would be nothing more than a nut and bolt job that Russia would offer just like the Su-30MKI.

Moreover, we never backstabbed Russia as we are still buying frigates from them which are quite expensive even though we've been building frigates, destroyers and corvettes in house. We are buying only due to the strategic partnership but not because we couldn't build them in our shipyards.

We still have the S-400 deal on, IA is planning to procure the Ak-103 assault rifle and the new FRCV tender has been designed just to favor the Armata.

If you still call this backstabbing, god help your logic

 

[RudraMudra]

We've been loyal to Russia all along and made sure we prioritize them when it comes it any major defense acquisition. We pumped in $295m into the initial design phase and the Russians took our money but didn't let us participate in the project. Our pilots weren't even allowed to fly the prototypes nor verify them up-close and this raised doubts of the stealth capabilities and the centralized sensor fusion integration technologies of the plane which is primarily what 5th gen is about.

Moreover, the engine is still in testing phase and they've been using an underpowered version which is used on the Su-35. Even if we go ahead with the deal, it would be nothing more than a nut and bolt job that Russia would offer just like the Su-30MKI.

Moreover, we never backstabbed Russia as we are still buying frigates from them which are quite expensive even though we've been building frigates, destroyers and corvettes in house. We are buying only due to the strategic partnership but not because we couldn't build them in our shipyards.

We still have the S-400 deal on, IA is planning to procure the Ak-103 assault rifle and the new FRCV tender has been designed just to favor the Armata.

If you still call this backstabbing, god help your logic

Russia possibly linked the S400 deal to the PAK-FA and India just called their bluff.

I don't think the S400 is coming anytime soon. Neither is the Ka 226T Helicopter coming anytime soon.

Russia slipped up badly trying to blackmail Modi. Did they really think he was another Manmohan singh ?

 

[Kaniska]

Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and Reuben F Johnson, Kuala Lumpur - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 April 2018

Key Points

• India has pulled out of its 11-year collaborative programme with Russia to build a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft
• The decision has ramifications for both the IAF and the Russian aerospace industry

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has shelved its 11-year old collaborative Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia following enduring differences over its developmental cost and technological capabilities.

Senior Indian officials, including National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, recently informed a visiting Russian ministerial delegation that India was withdrawing from the programme, official sources told Jane’s on 20 April.

The Indian officials are believed to have stated that the IAF could, at a later date, ‘revisit’ the FGFA project or alternatively acquire the fully developed platform once it had been inducted into the Russian Air Force, but did not elaborate.

Industry officials said the FGFA project, in which India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was the lead developmental agency, also did not feature in talks during Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman’s visit to Moscow in early April.

“The FGFA project had become an instance of too little, too late,” said military analyst and retired air marshal V K Bhatia. To pursue it any longer would not have served the IAF interests in any way as it struggles to make up fast-depleting fighter numbers, he added.

The IAF believes that the Sukhoi Su-57 (T-50 PAK-FA) fighter, which India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) designated the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter, does not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors. Seven FGFA prototypes are currently undergoing flight-testing in Russia, but for now there is no indication as to when the platform is likely to enter series production.

source:http://www.janes.com/article/79457/india-withdraws-from-fgfa-project-leaving-russia-to-go-it-alone

Good news..It was supposed to happen at some point of time.

 

[RudraMudra]

Good news..It was supposed to happen at some point of time.

Maybe its good news for the US, but its certainly not good news for the Indians or the Russians.

It just shows how bad the Indo-Russian ties have grown. Russia NEEDS India to make this program a success and yet they refuse to acknowledge this fact and continue to dig their own grave.

Its sheer madness. And I used to think Russians were pragmatic people.

 

[Kaniska]

Maybe its good news for the US, but its certainly not good news for the Indians or the Russians.

It just shows how bad the Indo-Russian ties have grown. Russia NEEDS India to make this program a success and yet they refuse to acknowledge this fact and continue to dig their own grave.

Its sheer madness. And I used to think Russians were pragmatic people.

To be honest, I do not think even, we should invest money on any 5th generation figher jets if we are not getting any TOT...The probablity of war in South Asia has been reduced significantly in 2018 than it was in 1998. Now, countries are being rival to each other in terms of economy and the quality of life that is being offered to its citizen...India and Pakistan may have issues with each other, but due to age of information and maturity of democracy in Pakistan, the possibility of real time war is significantly reduced.

So India should plan that is good for us in long run. If Russia is not ready to share the technology, then it is better to spend that money in buying some other jets from Russia rather than 5th generation planes without TOT

 

[RudraMudra]

To be honest, I do not think even, we should invest money on any 5th generation figher jets if we are not getting any TOT...The probablity of war in South Asia has been reduced significantly in 2018 than it was in 1998. Now, countries are being rival to each other in terms of economy and the quality of life that is being offered to its citizen...India and Pakistan may have issues with each other, but due to age of information and maturity of democracy in Pakistan, the possibility of real time war is significantly reduced.

So India should plan that is good for us in long run. If Russia is not ready to share the technology, then it is better to spend that money in buying some other jets from Russia rather than 5th generation planes without TOT

What kind of moronic reasoning is this ?

1. The more we invest in technology, the lesser the probability of war in South Asia will appear. The weaker we are, the more likely war is.

2. LOL at "maturity of democracy" in pakistan. PA calls the shots in pakistan and their PM is just a puppet and now they do not even bother to pretend that the PM is of any significance.

3. pakistan has become irrelevant to India a long time back. We don't even find it necessary to have basic talks with them anymore. china is the next big threat.

4. The more isolated Russia is, the more it will lean towards china. Is that what you want ? Russia has huge land, and low population. China has huge population. How do you think it will pan out in the future ?

5. The more Russia rely on china, the more bargaining power china has with russia and pretty soon cina will be calling the shots with russia. How is that a good thing for global peace ? Especially with the huge Russian oil reserves.

6. India has multiple options today, Russia does not. Today Russia needs India more than India needs Russia. But Russia is now so isolated globally that it has started acting like a schizophrenic patient. Its actions are harming itself. And that is not a good thing for India or the world.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

We've been loyal to Russia all along and made sure we prioritize them when it comes it any major defense acquisition. We pumped in $295m into the initial design phase and the Russians took our money but didn't let us participate in the project. Our pilots weren't even allowed to fly the prototypes nor verify them up-close and this raised doubts of the stealth capabilities and the centralized sensor fusion integration technologies of the plane which is primarily what 5th gen is about.

Moreover, the engine is still in testing phase and they've been using an underpowered version which is used on the Su-35. Even if we go ahead with the deal, it would be nothing more than a nut and bolt job that Russia would offer just like the Su-30MKI.

Moreover, we never backstabbed Russia as we are still buying frigates from them which are quite expensive even though we've been building frigates, destroyers and corvettes in house. We are buying only due to the strategic partnership but not because we couldn't build them in our shipyards.

We still have the S-400 deal on, IA is planning to procure the Ak-103 assault rifle and the new FRCV tender has been designed just to favor the Armata.

If you still call this backstabbing, god help your logic

That's total bullsh1ts, there is no such thing as loyal but interest in politic, India knew that and Russia knew that. You guys just don't have moral high on this deal: India had broken away from tradition military procurement by asking Russia to TOT of Russian latest core technology, if Russia said "NO" at India's face, you think India will pumped money into their FAK/FA? You guys were just taking of advantage of Russia by asking more concession...but Russia was not stupid neither, they used India's money and buying time to make FAK/FA work...at worst case Russia will refund India's money. The conclusion is that Russia outsmart India in this deal and not because you're nice guy, India wanted 5th gen technology so it could boost itself from Mr. nobody to be equal to Russia, US and China as 5th gen fighter manufacturer...Russia surely will not allowed that to be happened.

 

[Shamsher1990]

That's total bullsh1ts, there is no such thing as loyal but interest in politic, India knew that and Russia knew that. You guys just don't have moral high on this deal: India had broken away from tradition military procurement by asking Russia to TOT of Russian latest core technology, if Russia said "NO" at India's face, you think India will pumped money into their FAK/FA? You guys were just taking of advantage of Russia by asking more concession...but Russia was not stupid neither, they used India's money and buying time to make FAK/FA work...at worst case Russia will refund India's money. The conclusion is that Russia outsmart India in this deal and not because you're nice guy, India wanted 5th gen technology so it could boost itself from Mr. nobody to be equal to Russia, US and China as 5th gen fighter manufacturer...Russia surely will not allowed that to be happened.

Actually not.

Russia has lost a very valuable customer. They had lost China too, after last Su-35 deal. With all the economic sanctions, it will now be hard for them to deliver projects on time. Remember their Bulava missile and Borei sub? There is a reason why it was so much delayed.

 

[gkurt-1979]

It has been bad for bad for both Russia and India.Russia has lost one of her big customer.How will India built fifth generation fighter without help.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Actually not.

Russia has lost a very valuable customer. They had lost China too, after last Su-35 deal. With all the economic sanctions, it will now be hard for them to deliver projects on time. Remember their Bulava missile and Borei sub? There is a reason why it was so much delayed.

I don't think Russia will lose India as customer because India never want to put all eggs on same basket, it rather want to play US, RUSSIA and EU cards to get the best deal out of them, without Russia, India will have no bargain against US and if US decide to slap sanction on India such as military embargo then India will be toasted.

As for China, I don't think it wants to lose Russia as arm supplier, SU-35 and S-400 are the beginning, you will see more future cooperation, China still has a lot to learn from them, I certainly will not dismiss or underestimate Russia's creativity or ingenuity despite the fact Russia lack of money for their projects such as Borei or Bulava.

 

[Shamsher1990]

I don't think Russia will lose India as customer because India never want to put all eggs on same basket, it rather want to play US, RUSSIA and EU cards to get the best deal out of them, without Russia, India will have no bargain against US and if US decide to slap sanction on India such as military embargo then India will be toasted.

As for China, I don't think it wants to lose Russia as arm supplier, SU-35 and S-400 are the beginning, you will see more future cooperation, China still has a lot to learn from them, I certainly will not dismiss or underestimate Russia's creativity or ingenuity despite the fact Russia lack of money for their projects such as Borei or Bulava.

I remember someone higher up in CCP claiming SU-35 will be last fighter China will buy. I don't think it is R&D Russia is looking to do together, its sale of manufactured weapons or licensing to make money.

Russia will see more and more of her hardware to be used as bargain chip by India in bids against west or EU. Its a loss for Russia.

 

[siegecrossbow]

India can purchase the F-22/F-35 fusion that Lockheed is currently pitching to Japan. I think it'll fulfill many of FGFA's requirements.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

I remember someone higher up in CCP claiming SU-35 will be last fighter China will buy. I don't think it is R&D Russia is looking to do together, its sale of manufactured weapons or licensing to make money.

Russia will see more and more of her hardware to be used as bargain chip by India in bids against west or EU. Its a loss for Russia.

For Su-35, China surely don't want to be overly relied on Russia as 1960s and put our national security at risk as when Soviet decided to pull out their technical assistance and nail all our airplanes on ground. But China will cooperate with Russia with win-win formula such as we get what we want, they get what they want from.

 

[Shamsher1990]

For Su-35, China surely don't want to be overly relied on Russia as 1960s and put our national security at risk as when Soviet decided to pull out their technical assistance and nail all our airplanes on ground. But China will cooperate with Russia with win-win formula such as we get what we want, they get what they want from.

Russia's aim right now is simple. To get money, their MIC is starving for funds. And it is both R&D and production. I doubt China will fund their research or manufacturing. China has very specific needs about technology and manufacturing they want to do in China itself. Leaving perhaps SAMs and ABM, there is not much China can gain from Russia, question is if Russia will be willing to part with some very critical technologies like ABM or jet engine.

China's weapons imports are falling and Russia knows it well. India on the other hand is the largest weapons importer, for better or for worse. So yes, Russia has a hard choice. Either part with critical technology or be used by India as a bargain chip. India is more and more leaning towards west for finished equipments.