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Jamaat-ud-Dawa to approach ICJ over sanctions: Hafiz Saeed

I'm not believing they are linked to LeT or the mumbai attack, nor disbelieving it. I'm saying it is detrimental to Pakistani society to make any permanent move without following proper judicial procedures.
To point out, Sarabjit Singh, was tried in Pak courts. When he was caught in Pakistan.

Kashmir Singh was tried in Pak courts when he was caught in Pakistan.

We have given proper trial to Indian terrorists then why not to ones alleged to be terrorists by India?
 
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how did they just ban them without any warning and any investigations. Jamat ud dawa is humanitarian by nature...

They did nothing and i am sure of this. Just bcauz their guys have big beards nd theres pressure from US and India action is being taken on them? This will affect over 30000 students who are receiving education because of them. This is bullshit. We have seen them work... all aid organizations know this well...
 
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To point out, Sarabjit Singh, was tried in Pak courts. When he was caught in Pakistan.

Kashmir Singh was tried in Pak courts when he was caught in Pakistan.

We have given proper trial to Indian terrorists then why not to ones alleged to be terrorists by India?

beacause the crimes were comitted on Indian soil and Indian civilians were killed. your approach questions the validity of extradition treaties in the world.

BTW I would like to hear ur views regarding Lt General Qazi's comment
 
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beacause the crimes were comitted on Indian soil and Indian civilians were killed. your approach questions the validity of extradition treaties in the world.

BTW I would like to hear ur views regarding Lt General Qazi's comment
We don't have an extradition treaty for this very purpose. We don't trust what you guys have to say about our guys! We don't trust your legal system.

Extradition treaties are set up between nations where the others legal system is accepted in both countries. I didn't follow Qazi's comments.
 
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THAT statement.

He was the DG ISI from 1993 to 1995. It doesn't correlate with the Indian Parliament attack which was SO fake, that it wreaked of desperation by the Indians to somehow convince the Americans to attack Pakistan. When they didn't Indians quietly went back.

This time also Indians are bouncing up n down till the Americans are supporting them. When the Americans think the Indians have had enough fun, everything will go down.

Qazi's statement in the senate is just his own view and so obviously wrong. He is just dissing the Jaish-e-Mohammad, which I do too and I think they all should've been slaughtered this bakra eid instead. But its still wrong since Jaish wasn't even blamed for the attack, wasn't it Lashkar-e-Tayyaba?

Anyway, the point is not whether or not LeT and Tayyaba are guilty, the point is that JuD is being targeted for something possibly LeT did. Now LeT is already banned and their members are fugitives. But JuD was operating legally under Pakistani law. These are extra-judicial actions which should be sanctioned by a proper court.

If a court says kill em all, then we should do that. If a court says release them, then we should do that.

Rule of law. Not Zardari law.
 
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hmm.. i would like to understand some points regarding all these..

1) How many charity org. is thr @ pakistan and why the India and UN is blaming Jamaat-ud-Dawa only ? Either the US / India intelligence is lying or Pakistan is in self denial mode.

2) If JuD doesnt support terrorism then whats the use of all these effort of banning it? there must be something behind the scene going on?

I really dont understand why people of both country make it a question of pride or nationhood?

chanakya
 
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hmm.. i would like to understand some points regarding all these..

1) How many charity org. is thr @ pakistan and why the India and UN is blaming Jamaat-ud-Dawa only ? Either the US / India intelligence is lying or Pakistan is in self denial mode.

2) If JuD doesnt support terrorism then whats the use of all these effort of banning it? there must be something behind the scene going on?

I really dont understand why people of both country make it a question of pride or nationhood?

chanakya
India is blaming because it suspects JuD.

US is thinking maybe India is right

Pakistan is not denying but saying maybe before I believe foreigners and indict nationals, maybe, just maybe, we should see what our law says?
 
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hmm.. i would like to understand some points regarding all these..

1) How many charity org. is thr @ pakistan and why the India and UN is blaming Jamaat-ud-Dawa only ? Either the US / India intelligence is lying or Pakistan is in self denial mode.

2) If JuD doesnt support terrorism then whats the use of all these effort of banning it? there must be something behind the scene going on?

I really dont understand why people of both country make it a question of pride or nationhood?

chanakya

The question isn't about what 'intelligence says', nor is guilt established by what 'intelligence says'. - intelligence is a tool that can help you preempt certain acts and possibly provide evidence as well. Often intelligence is tenuous, and more someones gut feeling about connecting the dots in a particular manner, though it can be extremely strong as well, such as the suggestions in the media of recorded calls between the terrorists and their handlers.

But guilt can only be established in a court of law, where the evidence through intelligence and elsewhere is vetted and the burden of proof satisfied. If there is something behind the scenes, then it should be established in a court of law and these people put away for good.
 
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I wonder why everyone is so perturbed abt the JuD being banned ?

Like all similar orgnisations in Pak, it will mutate into another one with similar / worse dimensions. Loss of face ? Yes, but when did it matter ? The fear of creating more enemies in the fundamentalist camps also need not be given undue importance.. there are ways to give them 'perks etc' later without eyebrows being raised.


GOP went on record to say that it was either JuD or Pak itself being declared ' a terrorist". Obviously, the implications of Pak being decl a Terrorist State are too severe ..

Quote :
"Pakistan Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar said it had responded to the UN move because "we are part of the international community and cannot afford confrontation with the whole world".

He added: "Had we not implemented the resolution we would have been declared a terrorist state." Un quote.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7778884.

The situation is similar to that of Mush dropping Taliban on a Phone call. So what is evident is that both a Dictator or an elected Govt react similarly given the same stimulus.
 
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Guys, I am not sure we are on the same page!

Are you really serious that these guys need to be dealt with in the same way you would deal with a pickpocket or a common criminal!

They are terrorists and the normal criminal code has no relevance for them. No country has successfully fought a war with the terrorists with the "normal" criminal code and procedure.

So the issue is: Does Pakistan believe that they are terrorists or not? Does the world believe that they are terrorists or not? If they are, the normal process of law becomes meaningless and they have to be dealt with in a separate manner.

I think Asim hit the nail on the head when he said that Pakistan has different priorities. So LET may be a problem for India and the USA but a lower priority for Pakistan.

So the task for India and the USA is to increase the priority for you. To make Pakistan aware that the cost of not doing anything is not negligible. It better be done through diplomatic means like the UN resolutions to make it easier for Pakistan.

The talk of any judicial process is red-herring. What judicial process is followed against enemies of the country, against the Fata rebels, against the separatists?

No question Pakistan has different priorities, and part of the reason she has other priorities is forced on her because of the existing WoT, economic issues etc. I don't think forcing Pakistan to act on this particular issue at this point in time is going to be helpful, not with a relatively weak civilian government already battling several crises. Excessive pressure runs the risk of further destabilizing the country and therefore actually being counterproductive in the long run.

I think Pakistan's priorities right now are the correct ones, though the actions taken against the groups mentioned were unavoidable, and doable. I think there is more that can be done on this front in the medium term, but what I think about that later...

The issue isn't about treating terrorists vs ordinary criminals, its about rule of law. If the Pakistani parliament wants to pass a law such as TADA or POTA or the PATRIOT Act, then I have no issues if the GoP utilizes the provisions in that law for cracking down and punishing terrorists. But it needs to be done according to the law.

Your question about the crackdown in FATA and Baluchistan is a valid one, but it isn't an entirely applicable analogy. Baluchistan is perhaps the closest, since comes under the ambit of the Pakistani constitution, whereas FATA does not.

The biggest difference in Baluchistan is that you have armed groups fighting the State - they are killed in combat or arrested during searches and/or encounters. There really aren't that many questions about the individuals killed during hostilities, since they pose a direct threat to LEA personnel. There have been a lot of questions raised in Pakistan, and a lot of anger, by political parties, civic organizations and the media over the arrests of individuals - precisely because those arrests and detentions have been considered illegal and without proper trials and due process.

In fact one of the efforts by the PPP government has been to assuage the sentiment in Baluchistan by releasing political figures and prisoners that had been detained extra judicially, and curtail the military operations drastically.
 
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The question isn't about what 'intelligence says', nor is guilt established by what 'intelligence says'. - intelligence is a toll that can help you preempt certain acts and possibly provide evidence as well. Often intelligence is tenuous, and someones gut feeling about connecting the dots in a particular manner, though it can be extremely strong as well, such as the suggestions in the media of recorded calls between the terrorists and their handlers.

But guilt can only be established in a court of law, where the evidence through intelligence and elsewhere is vetted and the burden of proof satisfied. If there is something behind the scenes, then it should be established in a court of law and these people put away for good.
The question is very much about what the intelligence says. Just because all its aspects are not released for public consumption to settle internet debates doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does, very much so. This information has been collected very carefully over a substantial time period by multiple overt and covert organizations from various countries around the world using immense amounts of resources specifically because they have a lot at stake.

It would have been good if all of this could be taken to court where teams of lawyers could duke it out demanding meticulous paper trails (assuming the world had equitable paperwork standards) and raising reasonable doubt, but that is a luxury nobody outside Pakistan can afford.
 
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The question is very much about what the intelligence says. Just because all its aspects are not released for public consumption to settle internet debates doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You misunderstood my point - I am not questioning intelligence does not exist, but that guilt needs to be established in a court of law and due process followed. If intelligence can help in a trial, then fine.
It would have been good if all of this could be taken to court where teams of lawyers could duke it out demanding meticulous paper trails (assuming the world had equitable paperwork standards) and raising reasonable doubt, but that is a luxury nobody outside Pakistan can afford.

With all due respect, you are completely wrong on that count.

That this needs to be 'duked out' through a legal process is necessary, and it shows in the US closure of Gitmo and the global outcry against renditions and other illegal practices.

Demanding Pakistan to circumvent her laws when Americans oppose the same at home is blatant hypocrisy.
 
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I wonder why everyone is so perturbed abt the JuD being banned ?
Please do not generalize. If you think a particular member is perturbed then take it up with him/her or specifically address him/her.

The question is more of ensuring the rule of law is followed in Pakistan.

GOP went on record to say that it was either JuD or Pak itself being declared ' a terrorist". Obviously, the implications of Pak being decl a Terrorist State are too severe ..

Quote :
"Pakistan Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar said it had responded to the UN move because "we are part of the international community and cannot afford confrontation with the whole world".

He added: "Had we not implemented the resolution we would have been declared a terrorist state." Un quote.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7778884.

The situation is similar to that of Mush dropping Taliban on a Phone call. So what is evident is that both a Dictator or an elected Govt react similarly given the same stimulus.
I think we had Energon berate us for going off topic and indulging in too much 'bashing' on the forum, therefore, I'd request you to not raise inflammatory canards.

Your comment has little to do with the thread, and is intended to provoke.

Just to answer the question - there is a huge difference between the two situations. In the first Musharraf, as a dictator, did indeed capitulate to a threat, and it was the correct decision. In the second, we have Pakistan following its obligations as a member of the UN, by acting in accordance with the determinations made by the UNSC about the status of certain organizations and individuals. Any UN member nation should do so.
 
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Please do not generalize. If you think a particular member is perturbed then take it up with him/her or specifically address him/her.

The question is more of ensuring the rule of law is followed in Pakistan.


I think we had Energon berate us for going off topic and indulging in too much 'bashing' on the forum, therefore, I'd request you to not raise inflammatory canards.

Your comment has little to do with the thread, and is intended to provoke.

Just to answer the question - there is a huge difference between the two situations. In the first Musharraf, as a dictator, did indeed capitulate to a threat, and it was the correct decision. In the second, we have Pakistan following its obligations as a member of the UN, by acting in accordance with he determinations made by the UNSC about the status of certain organizations and individuals. Any UN member nation should do so.


My remarks were not directed towards a particular member but a comment on the general approach of ppl here.

I am sorry if u feel my remarks are intended to provoke, it was / is not the intention.

Where is the rule of law when an international body blacklists a " charitable" orgnisation inside Pak ? Is there an international law that says the UNSC cannot ban orgnisations within a member nation if it has conclusive proof that the Org is up to no good ?.. & the Govt is unable / incapable to control it ? Has it not happened in the past ?

The options before GOP have been spelt out and the lesser of the two evils was chosen. Where is the 'huge ' diff between the 2 situations ? In both cases it was a wise decision, in both cases Pak had no choice.. i.e. accept or be scrapped, in both cases GOP was on the wrong foot. In both cases the ultimatums came from overseas ( in the 2nd case with the tacit Ok of US).

Isn't there a pattern of inconsistencies on part of GOP ? It doesn't matter if the ruler sits in Islamabad or Rawalpindi. The responses to stimuli are the same coz the follies are the same.
 
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