J-31 possibly being tested & evaluated in Pakistan

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan dis-assemble a modern fighter jet & it all revolves around the engine incld the pilot. Nothing even comes close, not even modern radars.

Hi,

You are correct---fighter aircraft were build around the engine---. In the past if you had a lousy engine---you had a lousy aircraft---.

As technology got better---high performance engines came about---you knew you could put your tier one engine in your aircraft that would run circles around many other aircraft---.

But then over the decades as engines of similar size have produced more thrust---newer versions of the same aircraft have been modified to accomodate those engine and those engines have also been designed to be installed as replacement engines---.

So---keeping that in mind---and keeping the shortcomings of the RD93 on the J31 or that of the current J20 engine---it would be prudent to say that some thought would have been given to future modifications when those engines being designed for these two aircraft become available---.

Now just because these aircraft lack the supercruise capability---does not mean that the aircraft has lost its other potent fighting capabilities---.

it does not seem prudent not to operate the aircraft which maybe flying at 100% of its capability rather than the 10-15 % more capable future engine---.

I can use that time to learn the rest of the systems of the aircraft and keep myself operationally fit and up to date---so that when the new engine is readily installed---I am already proficient in the rest of the systems---and the transition would be minor---.

I just cannot sit back and do nothing---just because the right engine is not ready---.

 

[Armchair]

I understand your point. It could be underpowered (I would say it is relative) but I am not sure it is a showstopper. If we look at another (reasonablely) successful 5th gen project in F35, it has been criticized for a underpowered single engine since the project started but it doesn’t go to the point that one would discard the design.

Another consideration I suppose is that the choice of engine is as much a technical decision as a economical decision. Having a more powerful engine is certainly great but could increase the cost dramatically, and it could become a more severe threat to the feasibility of the proJect in the era where a 5th gen fighter plane can cost 100m+ a piece easily. Any industry project like this is a balanced one among many competing elements. Just my 2 cents.

Perhaps you need to look at the dry thrust of an F-35 and compare the dry thrust of a FC-31. You'll get a better picture. If the former is "underpowered" then what in the world is the latter? This is what happens when instead of talking about real capabilities, we let our mind imagine based on how we feel. It is always important to keep technical aspects into consideration. Eye-ball analysis only works when you have a technical background.

french fighters are all under powered, but they all still top notch.

Difference is France has a long pedigree of how to design fighters. China, and particularly SAC, doesn't. France's poor engine performance was compensated always with good aerodynamic compromises. Case in point - Mirage 2000.

Building fighter planes is not an easy task. You can't put a powerful engine on a brick and expect it to perform well. These are things that perhaps over time the Chinese will begin to appreciate, as it begins to catch up to the West.

Hi,

You are correct---fighter aircraft were build around the engine---. In the past if you had a lousy engine---you had a lousy aircraft---.

As technology got better---high performance engines came about---you knew you could put your tier one engine in your aircraft that would run circles around many other aircraft---.

But then over the decades as engines of similar size have produced more thrust---newer versions of the same aircraft have been modified to accomodate those engine and those engines have also been designed to be installed as replacement engines---.

So---keeping that in mind---and keeping the shortcomings of the RD93 on the J31 or that of the current J20 engine---it would be prudent to say that some thought would have been given to future modifications when those engines being designed for these two aircraft become available---.

Now just because these aircraft lack the supercruise capability---does not mean that the aircraft has lost its other potent fighting capabilities---.

it does not seem prudent not to operate the aircraft which maybe flying at 100% of its capability rather than the 10-15 % more capable future engine---.

I can use that time to learn the rest of the systems of the aircraft and keep myself operationally fit and up to date---so that when the new engine is readily installed---I am already proficient in the rest of the systems---and the transition would be minor---.

I just cannot sit back and do nothing---just because the right engine is not ready---.

Yes, you cannot sit back and do nothing. That is why you have the Project Azm. Also, you are missing the main issue - that you build an aircraft based on the engine capability you have. If your engine is capable to do x, you design accordingly. The chinese with the FC-31 put the cart before the horse as far as design process is concerned.

Here is an example of how you could make an effective design with a twin RD-93 - build a Mirage-2000 like single-engined tailless delta. You won't have any performance issues even compared to a Rafale. You could make it fly faster than a Rafale and have comparable ITR. Its all about the design choices you make, that has to be intelligently done, not done by a robotic cookie cutter that stole some files from the US f-35 program.

 

[Armchair]

Chinease are excellent and copying hard designs .

But when it goes beyond the shell and we talk about the brain or heart IIE cockpit Tech and engines the chinease are well behind the west especially USA.

Even today paf has themselves declared the falcons as superior to the J10.

This is why the paf never ordered any J10 vanguards .

They will try and sit it out and wait for J31;and in interim squeeze any falcon they .an get no matter how old or battered the airframe may be.

Most interesting they have completely given up trying to answer the near term threat of rafale IE from next year

Rafale is a 4th gen aircraft that can be countered with 4th generation aircraft. IAF missed the boat with the PAKFA and now has nowhere to go. Maybe Uncle Sam will show pity and throw some F-16s. But other than this, its a dead-end for India, other than gold-plated Raffles that are not worth the money.

At best the Rafale is 10% better than the Block 52. Nothing here that needs countering. 18 Block 52 is enough - force numbers comparison wise to deal with 36 odd Raffles. With the AESA equiped JF-17s coming online from 2019, PAF will easily be able to deal with anything IAF throws at it, and more. More and better updated AWACs, and the force posture between the two sides remains the same.

Now, if PAF can get a Chinese 5th gen - perhaps something from CAC - that would mean the advantage shifts to the PAF. Right now the balance is reasonably even, and will likely stay so for the forseeable future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is the simplistic form of modern engineering that is being utilized in the J31 and the J20---.

The manufacturers have realized and know upfront about the engine issue---.

They also know that the engine has nothing to do with the stealth frame of the aircraft other than the exhaust nozzles---.

They also know that the engine has "nothing" to do with the EW package in the aircraft---.

The manufacturer knows that every flight taken by this supposedly under powered aircraft takes them one step further in understanding their new design and gets the pilot s step closer in understanding the flight parameters of the aircraft.

Formula 1 type race car drivers do not learn to drive on the formula 1 race cars---. The learner type race cars have the similar driver's view but not the power.

 

[Army research]

OK bro , you're right, no hard feeling @Army research can give me hint about what should it be look like, CROPPED TAIL DELTA WING DESIGN LIKE FC-31 OR DELTA CANARD DELTA WING DESIGN LIKE J-20 @Army research

I didn't bother on asking much on physical aspects except engine etc ( don't ask which or what , you won't get an answer im afraid) , interestingly the avionics will shock many members here on the amount of indigenous content in them

 

[Fledgingwings]

smells like underground stuff.BTW cant access the video.it says unavailable.

 

[ziaulislam]

I doubt it will be seen as a rival jet to the CAC project besides, J-31 is almost ready to go into production, the Azam project maybe a decade away.

If PAF buys J31 Azam is dead or delayed.
jF-17 blk 3 will be a match to F-16 blk-52.
It's best for PAF to stick with jF-17 blk3 until Azam concludes.

Azm is suppose to be on drawing board till 2020, and protoype around 2025-26 with serial production 2033-35 just about time when f-16s are on their very last legs.
J31 is atleast 15 years ahead of it

pakistan would need to replacement for f-16s and it cannot be imported one

 

[Storm Force]

Rafale is a 4th gen aircraft that can be countered with 4th generation aircraft. IAF missed the boat with the PAKFA and now has nowhere to go. Maybe Uncle Sam will show pity and throw some F-16s. But other than this, its a dead-end for India, other than gold-plated Raffles that are not worth the money.

At best the Rafale is 10% better than the Block 52. Nothing here that needs countering. 18 Block 52 is enough - force numbers comparison wise to deal with 36 odd Raffles. With the AESA equiped JF-17s coming online from 2019, PAF will easily be able to deal with anything IAF throws at it, and more. More and better updated AWACs, and the force posture between the two sides remains the same.

Now, if PAF can get a Chinese 5th gen - perhaps something from CAC - that would mean the advantage shifts to the PAF. Right now the balance is reasonably even, and will likely stay so for the forseeable future.

So you banking on thunders to match up to 270 mki and hundred plus mig 29 not to mention mirage 2000.

Despite the chinease flankers winning every dact engagement against thunders recently

Like I said you will rely on falcons to save *** and hoping the J31,comes good

 

[Armchair]

So you banking on thunders to match up to 270 mki and hundred plus mig 29 not to mention mirage 2000.

Despite the chinease flankers winning every dact engagement against thunders recently

Like I said you will rely on falcons to save *** and hoping the J31,comes good

No my Bharati child, Chinese flankers didn't win every DACT against JF-17. JF-17 did well in WVR and at long range (they "won" these encounters overall), Flankers did better in the medium range. This shows that it was more about pilot skill than anything else. Now, that's the last response you're going to get, as you are derailing the thread.

Zia - According to the PAF boss, Azm will be developed in 5 years. We don't have any other timeline for it from official sources.

It would be very foolish to waste time on the drawing board for so many years. It is perfectly possible to be on the drawing board for a month at best. Then move on to testing small-scale models, then build small-scale prototypes. Wasting time on the drawing board till 2020 is an idiotic thing to do.

Imagine for 2-3 years, you make a drawing of a fighter. Then rubbish it. Then again make another drawing, and then rubbish that. For 750-1000 days. Does that make any sense?

 

[Goku-kun]

So you banking on thunders to match up to 270 mki and hundred plus mig 29 not to mention mirage 2000.

Despite the chinease flankers winning every dact engagement against thunders recently

Like I said you will rely on falcons to save *** and hoping the J31,comes good

block-3 thunders are specifically being designed to counter su-30mki so yah we are relying on them..
plus we have ly-80 to counter the threat of your su-30mki so you are bounded here..

 

[Army research]

No one is derailing the thread.

NOW try and substantiate your OUTRAGEOUS claim about AZM being developed in 5 years.

What does developed mean.

Developed by whom ie Pakistan or China.

What engine

What specs

What weapons

At What development cost

The ;last time I checked Pakistan is yet to develop a Helicopter let aloe a 5th gen fighter in what 5 years.

FOR THE RECORD france & germany are looking to develop a new fifth generation fighter and have suggested a $40 billion budget and 15 year time span.

BUT HEY this os PDF and rainbows do exist

Hence my challenge SHOW some proof to your claim

Storm, ( wether you believe the following info or not is up to you, can't force you )
AZM base conceptual design,doctrine, Avionics requirement was completed late 2015-2016, work had been going on for time in Air university,
Now The design and doctrine of the future plane is Pakistani, however critical components ( advanced materials ,engine, Chinese technical experience by already operationlizing j20) is coming from China. Design already done now main obstacle before Azm is the local manufacture of critical avionics ( main power of 5th gen after stealth ). This is what currently Pakistanis are developing with some Chinese assistance but a lot of the work is being done by locals themselves ( talked to a lot of avionics and design engineers who have been working on the project since the start ). Software works improvements to already present design and most importantly perfection of sensor fusion etc, why it took USA 30 years to make 5th gen is due to the fact they had to come up with everything from scratch including doctrine using cruddy 1990's computers , times have changed.
Azm prototype will fly once avionics work is done ( and of course when a classified future advanced engine is available to operationally fit in the craft for mass production ), work had been off in full steam since 2015 with design being done before that , by 2025 ish the prototype will fly and their will be operational craft (possibly squadron) by 2030, ofc if everything goes according to plan, say if local avionics fail, contingency is already present ones from China, the plane design is completed , believe it or not, it's just the modular components and perfection which needs done hence further years required,
A lot of the plane is indigenous, yet critical components are Chinese, however what concerns me more of which I was able to gather no info is the jf17s future, what block 4 and what the interim solution till 2027 is

 

[Captain77W]

Convince the EU to sell/lease Pakistan 20-30 Eurofighter Typhoons

 

[Army research]

Convince the EU to sell/lease Pakistan 20-30 Eurofighter Typhoons

No point, they won't lease they need money to keep production running, best bet is Flankers from Russia if not then J10 or the PAF might just wait till Azm, it's not like the Indians are gonna attack soon , they would need considerable investments in Air defence during the gap periods though

 

[CriticalThought]

Storm, ( wether you believe the following info or not is up to you, can't force you )
AZM base conceptual design,doctrine, Avionics requirement was completed late 2015-2016, work had been going on for time in Air university,
Now The design and doctrine of the future plane is Pakistani, however critical components ( advanced materials ,engine, Chinese technical experience by already operationlizing j20) is coming from China. Design already done now main obstacle before Azm is the local manufacture of critical avionics ( main power of 5th gen after stealth ). This is what currently Pakistanis are developing with some Chinese assistance but a lot of the work is being done by locals themselves ( talked to a lot of avionics and design engineers who have been working on the project since the start ). Software works improvements to already present design and most importantly perfection of sensor fusion etc, why it took USA 30 years to make 5th gen is due to the fact they had to come up with everything from scratch including doctrine using cruddy 1990's computers , times have changed.
Azm prototype will fly once avionics work is done ( and of course when a classified future advanced engine is available to operationally fit in the craft for mass production ), work had been off in full steam since 2015 with design being done before that , by 2025 ish the prototype will fly and their will be operational craft (possibly squadron) by 2030, ofc if everything goes according to plan, say if local avionics fail, contingency is already present ones from China, the plane design is completed , believe it or not, it's just the modular components and perfection which needs done hence further years required,
A lot of the plane is indigenous, yet critical components are Chinese, however what concerns me more of which I was able to gather no info is the jf17s future, what block 4 and what the interim solution till 2027 is

IF true, then a very heartening development, Alhamdulillah. This is in line with ACM Sohail Aman's statement that the future of PAC is making AESA radars and 5th gen jets in Pakistan. I really wish this expertise will expand to cater for electronics requirements of all branches.

 

[Army research]

IF true, then a very heartening development, Alhamdulillah. This is in line with ACM Sohail Aman's statement that the future of PAC is making AESA radars and 5th gen jets in Pakistan. I really wish this expertise will expand to cater for electronics requirements of all branches.

That just depends on inter branch inoperability , avionics work is hard to do , especially for our industrial capability but we have very bright minds working on the project, Chinese options are readily available but critical electronics etc have to be indigenous for strategic weapons,
Kudos