J-31 possibly being tested & evaluated in Pakistan

[araz]

My God, Look at this beauty. It looks almost identical to the US F-22. Having said that if Pakistan really wishes to learn a thing or two, i agree we should become part of this project.


Araz sb China isnt going to fund this project, their priories are set on J-20. If Pakistan needs to develop its own aviation industry, now would be a good time to become part of the project. Yes the risk factor is there as you mentioned and we might end up paying way more than otherwise but look at the bright side if all goes well, imagine the wealth of knowledge PAF will learn from this project and the years it is going to propel our aviation industry.
J-20 is not on sale and whether it becomes available or not is highly debatable. So do you think we can afford to wait while our neighbour is gunning for the F-35? The only way for the PAF to survive an air battle with the Indians is if we can get our hands on a 5th generation fighter much before India does even in small numbers this is going to add some serious punch to our mix of JF-17 and F-16s.

If China wants to sell it it will have to invest money into it to make it a viable option. Sitting on the fence prods the Chinese into action on the front, otherwise their product will die a painful death. My genuine fear is that having acquired development rights the Chinese will wash their hand off and make us foot the bill. You simply do not want to be in that situation. This remains my take on the matter. So far PAF inaction poiñts to my line of thinking as well.
A

 

[LKJ86]

If China wants to sell it it will have to invest money into it to make it a viable option. Sitting on the fence prods the Chinese into action on the front, otherwise their product will die a painful death. My genuine fear is that having acquired development rights the Chinese will wash their hand off and make us foot the bill. You simply do not want to be in that situation. This remains my take on the matter. So far PAF inaction poiñts to my line of thinking as well.
A

Do you want the development model like F-35 taken by USA and its allies?

 

[araz]

Do you want the development model like F-35 taken by USA and its allies?

What I want is irrelevant. PAF is cash strapped and investment in a risky project is a big No for them. They would want to see concrete steps from the Chinese side before they sfep in. In my view their demand will be 40 units so possibly off the shelf purchhase.
A

 

[LKJ86]

What I want is irrelevant. PAF is cash strapped and investment in a risky project is a big No for them. They would want to see concrete steps from the Chinese side before they sfep in. In my view their demand will be 40 units so possibly off the shelf purchhase.
A

Maybe you underestimate the ambition of PAF.

 

[araz]

Maybe you underestimate the ambition of PAF.

OK. Lets wait and see how this transpires. I like the bird immensely and looks wise it is better than the J20. However, there are a lot of hurdles to cross.
A

 

[LKJ86]

OK. Lets wait and see how this transpires. I like the bird immensely and looks wise ig is better than the J20. However, there are a lot of hurdles to cross.
A

Which bird?

 

[araz]

Which bird?

J31

 

[randomradio]

Bhai.
The plane is a mere prototype. At Prototype stage we have heard of a weak engine, and no interest from PLAN. When you put a protoype up for sale you are looking for a benefactor to fund the project. The cost could run into billions as all the niggles are ironed out to give you a viable and functioning product. The time could easily run into 7-10 yrs.This is even before you get your first low rate production model. So for 40 planes your basic costing will be cost(say 60 million+1/40 of 1 billion =25 million. Then add cost of developing infrastucture, armaments, radars, other goodies and you could easily go past 120- 130 million. If anything goes wrong and more money and time is needed you may have sunk your billion dollars and still need more. Look at the development cost of the F35 as an example. This is not a good idea. The better idea would be to wait and see whether the PLAN chooses the J31, let them foot the bill for its development, mature the platform and then go and buy 40 units.PLAN needs are such that with 250 platforms ordered the development costs will get diluted and you may end up paying 80-90 million per unit. I hope that explains the situation. Eventually if J31 does not come online, J20 will be put up for sale to PAF in 2023-25 bracket.
A

While what you say is correct about the J-31, I doubt the Chinese will sell you the J-20 regardless of the J-31's outcome. Rather you should pin your hopes on whatever aircraft will be designed for the PLAAF to replace their J-10s.

Until the J-31's final engine has been decided, there's no point even bothering to look at it.

Anyway, I doubt PLAN will choose the J-31. All reports indicate, the J-31 was made by SAC without any service input, so they may go for a completely different design from CAC.

 

[tarrar]

We would be flying our own Stealth Fighter in Airforce with same engines that fly JF17 Thunder so the arguments make no sense that on JF-17 the engine is completely acceptable but if we put the same engine on a J-31 Stealth platform with Twin Engine , suddenly the stealth fighter jet is not up to PAF standards

J-31 , twin engine are giving the Jet more speed/acceleration capabilities and additional features of Stealth but some how it is not up to par

To me J-31 is at similar level as JF17 Block 1 , but with stealth capabilities and that itself is sufficient for consideration

We can always introduce a different Chinese engine in future which we develop for JF17 Block III. The Avionics package I would imagine would be no less then that of JF17 Block I


If I had to choose

a) Fly 1970's 40 Mirage
b) Fly 40 J-31

I would likely opt to have the 40 J-31, knowing fully I am getting Stealth / Modern BVR
With potential upgrade possible on helmet technology

The Additional Money we are spending is really for Stealth features

Conceptional Tech on J-31

vs Mirage older tech (Last updated in 90's plane is origionally from 70's)

After watching the video, I believe that J31 needs a new strong & smokeless engine.

 

[帅的一匹]

What I want is irrelevant. PAF is cash strapped and investment in a risky project is a big No for them. They would want to see concrete steps from the Chinese side before they sfep in. In my view their demand will be 40 units so possibly off the shelf purchhase.
A

PAF is working at AZM,they want IP.

After watching the video, I believe that J31 needs a new strong & smokeless engine.

Ws19 is under development,.and.the possibility of inducting Fc21 is high.

While what you say is correct about the J-31, I doubt the Chinese will sell you the J-20 regardless of the J-31's outcome. Rather you should pin your hopes on whatever aircraft will be designed for the PLAAF to replace their J-10s.

Until the J-31's final engine has been decided, there's no point even bothering to look at it.

Anyway, I doubt PLAN will choose the J-31. All reports indicate, the J-31 was made by SAC without any service input, so they may go for a completely different design from CAC.

WS19 with 11.5 tons thrust is under development

Fc31 will be a perfect fit for PAF with WS19 engine. but now PAF is not satisfied with buying off the shelf only. they wanna own the trademark right.

there comes the AZM, PAF had tasted the sweetness of JF17 project.

PAF is smart business man as well.

 

[帅的一匹]

i strongly believe if PAF and CAC want, they can change the hinge design anytime.

If China wants to sell it it will have to invest money into it to make it a viable option. Sitting on the fence prods the Chinese into action on the front, otherwise their product will die a painful death. My genuine fear is that having acquired development rights the Chinese will wash their hand off and make us foot the bill. You simply do not want to be in that situation. This remains my take on the matter. So far PAF inaction poiñts to my line of thinking as well.
A

dont worry, saud invested 1 billion USD in this project. if PLAN and PLAAF interested in FC21, money will not be a problem.

China will not let Pakistan suffer loss deliberately.

if the third or fouth FC21 prototypes roll out, then we can make sure that PLAN or PLAAF are interested in that.

another angle that you look at PAF skip FC31 for AZM is that they are more interested on J20 and CAC.

i always suggest that AZM should a single seater design based on J20 experience and fit WS10IEP with 14.5 ton thrust for stop gap and replace it with WS15 engine when it get FOC.

 

[araz]

i strongly believe if PAF and CAC want, they can change the hinge design anytime.


dont worry, saud invested 1 billion USD in this project. if PLAN and PLAAF interested in FC21, money will not be a problem.

China will not let Pakistan suffer loss deliberately.

if the third or fouth FC21 prototypes roll out, then we can make sure that PLAN or PLAAF are interested in that.

another angle that you look at PAF skip FC31 for AZM is that they are more interested on J20 and CAC.

i always suggest that AZM should a single seater design based on J20 experience and fit WS10IEP with 14.5 ton thrust for stop gap and replace it with WS15 engine when it get FOC.

I agree with your assertion that PAF might be interested in J20 in small numbers to counter the Rafale. I also agree that 3rd or 4th FLYING protoype of J31 will mean some interest from some party most likely PLAAF/PLAN which in turn will make the project much more palatable to other parties. However J31 remains a risk unless the Chinese Air force/Navy is willing to absorb the development costs which will not happen unless they are buying it. There is a suggestion that it takes 150 planes for the parent company to recover its develoment costs which is why unless there is commitment from the PLAAF/PLAN this plane will not go anywhere.
I do not think the Chinese will knowingly fleece the PAF but they will not absorb the development costs unless there is benefit in it. This is plain simple business rule.
A

 

[randomradio]

WS19 with 11.5 tons thrust is under development

Fc31 will be a perfect fit for PAF with WS19 engine. but now PAF is not satisfied with buying off the shelf only. they wanna own the trademark right.

there comes the AZM, PAF had tasted the sweetness of JF17 project.

PAF is smart business man as well.

Once the new engines are ready, we will be able to make a more informed opinion.

Project Azm is not even a paper plane today. And it's not going to be ready until 2035-40 anyway, if they go it alone. Let's talk about it after the engineering phase starts.

PAF's only viable option today that can match the Rafale F4 and PAK FA's timeframe is the J-31.

I agree with your assertion that PAF might be interested in J20 in small numbers to counter the Rafale. I also agree that 3rd or 4th FLYING protoype of J31 will mean some interest from some party most likely PLAAF/PLAN which in turn will make the project much more palatable to other parties. However J31 remains a risk unless the Chinese Air force/Navy is willing to absorb the development costs which will not happen unless they are buying it. There is a suggestion that it takes 150 planes for the parent company to recover its develoment costs which is why unless there is commitment from the PLAAF/PLAN this plane will not go anywhere.
I do not think the Chinese will knowingly fleece the PAF but they will not absorb the development costs unless there is benefit in it. This is plain simple business rule.
A

The way I see it, the PAF will jointly develop a new export aircraft with the Chinese on the lines of the JF-17. So we will see the CAC designing and developing a new aircraft for PAF's specific requirement and this aircraft will be bought in sufficiently large numbers to make it viable, 100+, and will include joint ownership and production in Pakistan.

 

[devil302]

found another v2 pic has anyone ever seen this?

 

[khanasifm]

After watching the video, I believe that J31 needs a new strong & smokeless engine.

Hmd usually no hud is required in the cockpit