J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Wolf]

@Zibago

You should first compare J10 and F 16

You will find that they are nearly EQUAL in terms of capabilities

That is why PAF prefers F 16 -- because of its capabilities

And IF F 16 is NOT available ; then only J 10 can fill the gap

But so far F 16 was available and the INTEGRATION of new F 16 is very easy for PAF
They can be put into use immediately

But in case of J 10 ;even after induction
the J 10 will require a lengthy integration and operationalising process

That will take time ; but may be it is the only option left

As F 16s wont be available, so instead of wasting time, PAF should accept the reality and go to plan B which as per your statement is J10B or C.

 

[Manticore]

we have 150 F22 . 150 j20 , 150 Rafale and 150 F35 those are the new Gen Advance birds and WE ALL KNOW THAT WILL NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN,

How many 5th gen fighters can we maintain?
If they are less than 50, you need j10 to back them up as fighter bombers


''By 2013, the cost per flight hour of f22a was $68,362, over three times as much as the F-16''

 

[Wolf]

Sorry sir , I don't agree with you on numbers , I never said we have to match a plain by plain or bird with bird , I just say and I want 2:3 ratio like 1500 IAF vs1075 or 1000 PAF , having only 500 or 600 wont work unless we have 150 F22 . 150 j20 , 150 Rafale and 150 F35 those are the new Gen Advance birds and WE ALL KNOW THAT WILL NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN,
So I am very right on saying that we need advance large lags JF17 minmum150 J10 minimum 150 and normal JF17 Block3 minimum 150 TOTAL 450 just to cover numbers Gap and having advance tech and Next level Gen in PAF.
We do need missiles but they not "the only solution " We must need to have conventional tools of WAR ,
We have to make sure our Air Force don't fall too short on numbers just like our Navy ,
Thank you

Sir, we always believed in a credible minimum deterance. This thinking is inherently defensive and counter productive, makes you believe that you are somehow inferior to indians. If we think plane for a plane, tank for a tank, economy for an economy terms only then you can prevail. We were know to be offensive, we some how lost our way. Our planners need to shed off this defensive approach and plan accordingly through better economy, better human resource, better armed forces, better equipment. Pakistan has no other option to be better than india in order to survive. This is the israeli approach and it takes more than being defensive to survive as an ideological state. Regards.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

chacha g, my apologies, the numbers you have mentioned for PAF by 2025 is what the best we can hope for. And in my opinion an extra-ordinary good thing to occur so I have to ask you why do you think it will be a bad.

First please let me how 500 Su 30s will actually be able to handle 150 J-31.

Why are Jf 17 not good fighters, is there issues with performance in dog fights such bad roll onset rates, low pitch rates, low G handling by air frames, too low combat range or loiter times. Or the issue you think is with its avionics and its in-ability in AA or AG operational modes.

First 250 JF17 , lol SU 30 will over run our birds , JF17 cant stay in air longer , SU30 can , There is a saying in Punjabi " "bhaga bhaga key marna " they don't have to do much just make sure JF17 runs out of fuel, And keep in mind Indian going to upgrade SU30 with SU35 KIT , so you are not talking about SU 30 but you are talking about SU35.
and J31 will be the pain in the Azz for IAF but for how long what 150 birds can do , man you have to attack enemy in enemy territory (deep strike) , You have to Bomb Enemy in battle fields and you have to defend your own air too, What will JF31 will do and for how long
And keep one thing in mind Having low numbers not only effects operational capabilities but it also effects the human the force( I m talking about Moral) ,,,,, and just don't ask about the poor machine
Thank you

 

[MastanKhan]

and what will you do before 2020, will you say india that wait till 2020, when we will get J10 then we will fight. And who tells you that J 10 does not bring anything new, do u have aesa radar capability? your answer will be we will have it when JF17 block 3 arrives. And what we will do till the time block 3 is not available? And who told you that 2020 is the date you get FC 31. If PAC can be made to roll out 24 JF 17s in a year, it wont be an issue to have overhaul facilities for J 10 with chinese help. Problem is that some top brass PAF dumb people want to move in circles for their own reasons with commissions one of them.

Hi,

It astounds when when poster make remarks about the chinese airrcaft---like the J10's is not good enough---or it does not bring anything new to the table---.

I never thought my young pakistnis would be that dumb and stupid----.

The J10 does not need to bring anything superior to the table----as long as it ca keep up with the capabilitiesof the F16 BLK 52---it is a win win for pakistan---.

Pakistan needs another 100 aircraft like the F16 BLK52----to fill in the hole that we are in---. With AESA---and the J10C is far superior than the BLK52 we have----and other items---it is around 90-95 % capable.

But when you asses the power positioning that the aesa give---it makes it superior to the BLK52.

The pakistani fanboys are forgetting or do not have the comprehension to understand that these aircraft are to face the U S aircraft---these are the best of the best that the chinese have with their latest technology and being not too far behind the U S---that technology is very potent---.

First 250 JF17 , lol SU 30 will over run our birds , JF17 cant stay in air longer , SU30 can , There is a saying in Punjabi " "bhaga bhaga key marna " they don't have to do much just make sure JF17 runs out of fuel, And keep in mind Indian going to upgrade SU30 with SU35 KIT , so you are not talking about SU 30 but you are talking about SU35.
and J31 will be the pain in the Azz for IAF but for how long what 150 birds can do , man you have to attack enemy in enemy territory (deep strike) , You have to Bomb Enemy in battle fields and you have to defend your own air too, What will JF31 will do and for how long
And keep one thing in mind Having low numbers not only effects operational capabilities but it also effects the human the force( I m talking about Moral) ,,,,, and just don't ask about the poor machine
Thank you

Hi,

That is what the israelis did to the egyptian Mig21's during the ramzan war.

 

[aamirzs]

AESA radar is the key and it will be a boost!

 

[CHACHA"G"]

How many 5th gen fighters can we maintain?
If they are less than 50, you need j10 to back them up as fighter bombers


''By 2013, the cost per flight hour of f22a was $68,362, over three times as much as the F-16''

Sir I was answering to a post which said if PAF 500 stat of the art birds then I don't have to worry about the numbers,
So those are 500 birds
We do need one more Bird with our heavies next Gen(if we are going to have one) ,, And for me J10 is the only option , economical , cost effective , no string attached , Advance long legs single engine Delta wing , And you name the quality its in there
And top of all We don't have to store spear parts for 5 Fcking years ( that save us billions of dollars )
And Sir IF we have J31 that wont be before 2025 , and IF our economy grow in good shape we can start building them and can have 125 (replace all F16) that will take 5 more years and in 2030 I m sure our economy can afford them.
Thank you

 

[Manticore]

Mastaan sahib, the air chief mentioned that the paf is looking for something newer than j20 etc

Does this mean unmanned stealth fighters
@MastanKhan




''The Northrop Grumman X-47C is designed to be a stealth, unmanned aircraft.[1] Its ancestors the X-47A and the X-47B made this unmanned aircraft possible to carry out the "stealth" that was needed in order to be undetectable by radar.[1] It is planned to have a payload of 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg),
''

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Hi,

It astounds when when poster make remarks about the chinese airrcaft---like the J10's is not good enough---or it does not bring anything new to the table---.

I never thought my young pakistnis would be that dumb and stupid----.

The J10 does not need to bring anything superior to the table----as long as it ca keep up with the capabilitiesof the F16 BLK 52---it is a win win for pakistan---.

Pakistan needs another 100 aircraft like the F16 BLK52----to fill in the hole that we are in---. With AESA---and the J10C is far superior than the BLK52 we have----and other items---it is around 90-95 % capable.

But when you asses the power positioning that the aesa give---it makes it superior to the BLK52.

The pakistani fanboys are forgetting or do not have the comprehension to understand that these aircraft are to face the U S aircraft---these are the best of the best that the chinese have with their latest technology and being not too far behind the U S---that technology is very potent---.




Hi,

That is what the israelis did to the egyptian Mig21's during the ramzan war.

Sir Correct me if I m wrong PAF's F16 Pilots and Ground Staff helps Chines in Building J10 , At least that was in media in Mushi Times like around 2002.
So Basically J10 is advance Chinese version of F16 with Delta Wings *(these wings do have some short comings but the advantages they have you wont find them in F16 ).
Thank you

Mastaan sahib, the air chief mentioned that the paf is looking for something newer than j20 etc

Does this mean unmanned stealth fighters
@MastanKhan




''The Northrop Grumman X-47C is designed to be a stealth, unmanned aircraft.[1] Its ancestors the X-47A and the X-47B made this unmanned aircraft possible to carry out the "stealth" that was needed in order to be undetectable by radar.[1] It is planned to have a payload of 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg),
''

HAHAHAHAHAHA , Sir now you are just putting salt on our wounds

 

[Manticore]

Sir Correct me if I m wrong PAF's F16 Pilots and Ground Staff helps Chines in Building J10 , At least that was in media in Mushi Times like around 2002.
So Basically J10 is advance Chinese version of F16 with Delta Wings *(these wings do have some short comings but the advantages they have you wont find them in F16 ).
Thank you


HAHAHAHAHAHA , Sir now you are just putting salt on our wounds

I am pointing out that even an unmanned stealth fighter wont have a payload greater than jft

 

[leftfordead]

@MastanKhan Don't forget the IRST , DSI , More Payload , range , Availability of Spare parts , support to create infrastructure , Maintenance facility , Diverse Weapon system , Last but not the least , China can give us these J-10's in Numbers as quick as Possible ..

 

[ghazi768]

First 250 JF17 , lol SU 30 will over run our birds , JF17 cant stay in air longer , SU30 can , There is a saying in Punjabi " "bhaga bhaga key marna " they don't have to do much just make sure JF17 runs out of fuel, And keep in mind Indian going to upgrade SU30 with SU35 KIT , so you are not talking about SU 30 but you are talking about SU35.
Thank you

Wah Chacha G wah, what an analogy you have given. But how an Su 30 will will do it once both fighters drop their tanks to get in a merge. Is it a better energy fighter than F-16 or JF-17?
I'll not mention JF-17 here for reasons but look at design of both F-16 and JF-17 and if you know about what I am talking about you will get the idea. Now, I'll need to smash my head in a wall for my ignorance for so long if I find out that Su-30 is a better energy fighter than F-16. It is actually vipers which are re-knowned for this, nothing even to this day beats them in this quality and may be the reason they start getting called vipers. In a long fight they'll happily keep sucking you energy while maintaining their own. If you end up facing a viper in another jet and cannot get a quick result, you absolutely hate them for this. your "bhaga bhaga ke marna" is actually viper's favourite tactic. I do not know for what reason you think otherwise. Dogfights are not about absolute Kgs of fuel you are pushing around with.

and J31 will be the pain in the Azz for IAF but for how long what 150 birds can do , man you have to attack enemy in enemy territory (deep strike) , You have to Bomb Enemy in battle fields and you have to defend your own air too, What will JF31 will do and for how long
And keep one thing in mind Having low numbers not only effects operational capabilities but it also effects the human the force( I m talking about Moral) ,,,,, and just don't ask about the poor machine
Thank you

Chacha G, I asked how?
Numbers are all not important even if we are talking about BVR combat. All BVR combat is going to occur in 15-50 kms at best depending upon altitude and speed. How will 500 Su 30s be able to even get a track on a J-31 before it actually is useless as they'll have ended in VWR range. Even if a J-31 pilot is stupid or too confident and decides to approach them head-on with radar blazing at full power, with 4 BVR missile how much chance a very large Su 30 has to even try getting in VWR range to have a chance of getting in a fight.
And where will they hide, in calcutta or madras, why the hell will J-31s even need to go there, PAF can just happily and merrily rip apart all air defences and land formations.

Hi,


That is what the israelis did to the egyptian Mig21's during the ramzan war.

If you are mentioning the 1973 war than it is not correct, EAF did well in it, actually Hosni Mubarak I think EAF commander at that time became such a hero that he ended up becoming President later. I do not remember the numbers but I have read in an analysis in staff course material that a significant number of EAF losses in that war was because of fratricide by there own air-defences. Saturating too much air-defence has its cost as well.

 

[Wolf]

Mastaan sahib, the air chief mentioned that the paf is looking for something newer than j20 etc

Does this mean unmanned stealth fighters
@MastanKhan




''The Northrop Grumman X-47C is designed to be a stealth, unmanned aircraft.[1] Its ancestors the X-47A and the X-47B made this unmanned aircraft possible to carry out the "stealth" that was needed in order to be undetectable by radar.[1] It is planned to have a payload of 10,000 pounds (4,500 kg),
''

OMG! Sir when did that happen? I mean something newer than J20, is he talking about space ships.

 

[his5850]

when we talk about J-10 we have to remember that J-10 is also a light weight fighter Just like JF-17 it is bigger because of that it can carry more flue for long rang fight that is the one of the reason china selected J10 and J10 A can carry 6,000 kg and JF-17 block II can carry 4500 Kg of Useful load

F-16 is medium weight fighter it has a useful load of 12000 KG that is big amount of load because of it can run faster then JF-17 have more flue and can go father then JF-17 and carry more heaver bombs that sort of thing they compliment each other

if J-10B is in medium class fighter just like F-16 then sure buy it if not then it is not worth have 2 light weight fighters and there is also one other point adding a new aircraft mean new training for pilot and maintenance for this craft and we have to buy spare parts for it but it is J-10 we can make them in pakistan introduction of new aircraft will at least take 3 years minimum

 

[Blabla]

Sorry sir , I don't agree with you on numbers , I never said we have to match a plain by plain or bird with bird , I just say and I want 2:3 ratio like 1500 IAF vs1075 or 1000 PAF , having only 500 or 600 wont work unless we have 150 F22 . 150 j20 , 150 Rafale and 150 F35 those are the new Gen Advance birds and WE ALL KNOW THAT WILL NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN,

Nothing in this world works on your wishlist & desires everything should be done on the basis of your requirements and needs to keep the enemy away & to make the country defense stronger . USA is the only country in the world that possess F 22 no one else can possess it . 150 F 22 even Israel dont have a single one its so funny to read more over 150 Rafale is more funnier with 150 F 35 USA airforce doesnot posses until now 150 F 35 . They spend most of there budget building it now USA does not have enough money to produce them every year in hundreds ofcourse the cost of maintaince training & logistics is also very high for these birds .


So I am very right on saying that we need advance large lags JF17 minmum150 J10 minimum 150 and normal JF17 Block3 minimum 150 TOTAL 450 just to cover numbers Gap and having advance tech and Next level Gen in PAF.
well J 10 has no future better to incorperate its avionics technology in to JF 17 block 3 with a major structural redesign & also BVR and so on . PAF with 600 combat jets will remain a deter-ant strong force against SU 30 MKI . Pakistan need to induct SU 35 or a 5 gen J 20 or J 31 a stronger jet which is stealthy and can penetrate more into the enemy lines its more than enough along with a stronger cruise missile to keep the enemy into its border more than would be useless for PAF & airforce has to stleath drones like CH5 they can give us enough edge over IAF so no worries .

We do need missiles but they not "the only solution " We must need to have conventional tools of WAR ,
We have to make sure our Air Force don't fall too short on numbers just like our Navy ,
Thank you

First 250 JF17 , lol SU 30 will over run our birds , JF17 cant stay in air longer , SU30 can , There is a saying in Punjabi " "bhaga bhaga key marna " they don't have to do much just make sure JF17 runs out of fuel, And keep in mind Indian going to upgrade SU30 with SU35 KIT , so you are not talking about SU 30 but you are talking about SU35.
Dont be obessed from IAF & HAL they are war mongerers let them build thousands if PAF have 600 state of art best jets they are enough to destroy IAF in minutes just like in 1980s when PAF was with F 16 and poor IAF Migs
and J31 will be the pain in the Azz for IAF but for how long what 150 birds can do , man you have to attack enemy in enemy territory (deep strike) , You have to Bomb Enemy in battle fields and you have to defend your own air too, What will JF31 will do and for how long
And keep one thing in mind Having low numbers not only effects operational capabilities but it also effects the human the force( I m talking about Moral) ,,,,, and just don't ask about the poor machine
Thank you