It's time to resolve Siachen, says Kayani

[Rajputana]

Quick question.. Kargil posts were mapped too..What stops another idiot like Musharraf doing what he did in Kargil? Is there a single part of border (intl or otherwise) between India and Pakistan which is unmanned.. Then what is different with Siachen ? Just that its difficult to man.. Just like Kargil peaks were in 1999 (am sure with 13 years of technology advancements, siachen is only as difficult to man today as Kargil peaks were in 1999)

Hi

Pakistanis have always had the better and daring plans. Kargil was a masterstroke. Unfortunately Pakistanis overestimated their capability to pull it off. I mean you could always plan to land on the moon, but you gotta consider your capabilities.

They just sent brave soldiers to die without any support, you can only hope for that much of bravery from a soldier.

India had it's options open in using it's airforce since it was it's territory according to ratified maPs. If you get a chance do watch Pakistani soldiers interviews, they were being massacred while running away barehanded and surviving on sugar for 10 days straight. How can you blame them for surrendering in face of overwhelming force.

Once Pakistan signs those maps, it knows what's in store for it if it tries to breach it, I'd assume that much of intelligence in Pakistani officers to avoid another massacre like kargil

 

[deckingraj]

Quick question.. Kargil posts were mapped too..What stops another idiot like Musharraf doing what he did in Kargil? Is there a single part of border (intl or otherwise) between India and Pakistan which is unmanned.. Then what is different with Siachen ? Just that its difficult to man.. Just like Kargil peaks were in 1999 (am sure with 13 years of technology advancements, siachen is only as difficult to man today as Kargil peaks were in 1999)

Once maps are accepted by both sides then it becomes very difficult to deny that...You very well know what happened in Kargil...Pakistan is still paying for that misadventure....Anyhow once they agree in principle about the AGPL then there can be ways by which both sides can monitor troops movement if any...Also keep in mind the reason for this specific treatment for Siachen...It is the cost (money and men) that is compelling us to think of a solution...Don't see any sense in re-doing the whole saga...


------------------------------------------@Members------------------------------------------------
b/w as far as the solution goes then there is only one option which is acceptance of current ground locations. Let's keep emotions and pride apart for a second and think logically....There was an era when we were loosing troops like anything there but now situation has changed. Now the loss of life is not as horrific as it was let's say a decade back. Modern technology has made the life of the soldier somewhat easier then what it was a decade ago...if i go by some records then i can say we have not lost a single life in last 8 years...with robust economy we can afford the money wise cost much easily then what we could have a decade earlier...

If above given statement has even an iota of truth then i am not sure what on this earth will make us soften our stand which we did not when the going was real tough as compared to now(in relative terms)???

 

[Joe Shearer]

Quick question.. Kargil posts were mapped too..What stops another idiot like Musharraf doing what he did in Kargil? Is there a single part of border (intl or otherwise) between India and Pakistan which is unmanned.. Then what is different with Siachen ? Just that its difficult to man.. Just like Kargil peaks were in 1999 (am sure with 13 years of technology advancements, siachen is only as difficult to man today as Kargil peaks were in 1999)

Good question.

If you read the entire proposal (not copied here, but can be done if anyone is interested), it is impossible for either side to return to their present positions from the proposed positions without the other side getting ample warning on surveillance.

The idea is for both sides to revert to distant points, not lurk in wait somewhere nearby. The idea also is to strictly scrutinise mountaineering expedition licenses, to avoid anyone ripping off their masks and jumping into position.

In both cases, there was fairly level approach terrain on the Pakistan side, very steep slopes on the Indian side.

In Kargil, there was no aerial surveillance whatsoever and there was no information about the covert action taken until very late. It is thought that this (lack of surveillance) will be put right in any future arrangement.

Finally, for what it is worth, there is an opinion that Pakistan will not readily go through what it went through in the eyes of world opinion once again; Kargil was enough.

 

[Mike2011]

We can't trust pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@ Joe Shearer

If the Siachen Glacier is really of no strategic value, why doesn't Pakistan just accept India's position, demarcate the border in the region, and then both sides withdraw their troop, end of story

Pakistani Army won't let that happen.........

It's a war of grits.

If you can go to that lengths financially and human cost, your adversary has an idea of your resolve.

Unfortunately to prove your grit, the price is lives, and Pakistan has realized it can afford neither finances nor human costs.

Sad but the reality.

This is actually the best way, and one that will be quickest. In fact, at times it seems it is the only way, subject to our agreeing on what due north of the last mapped point means. Literally taken, India loses about 500 sq. miles of the 1000 now held. If we accept the bending line, west of north-west, including Indian positions on the western slopes of the glacier, Pakistan complains that it loses 500 square miles.

If this could be sorted out, I doubt that Pakistan would have a problem.

 

[Icewolf]

We can't trust pakistan.

World can't trust us.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Once maps are accepted by both sides then it becomes very difficult to deny that...You very well know what happened in Kargil...Pakistan is still paying for that misadventure....Anyhow once they agree in principle about the AGPL then there can be ways by which both sides can monitor troops movement if any...Also keep in mind the reason for this specific treatment for Siachen...It is the cost (money and men) that is compelling us to think of a solution...Don't see any sense in re-doing the whole saga...


------------------------------------------@Members------------------------------------------------
b/w as far as the solution goes then there is only one option which is acceptance of current ground locations. Let's keep emotions and pride apart for a second and think logically....There was an era when we were loosing troops like anything there but now situation has changed. Now the loss of life is not as horrific as it was let's say a decade back. Modern technology has made the life of the soldier somewhat easier then what it was a decade ago...if i go by some records then i can say we have not lost a single life in last 8 years...with robust economy we can afford the money wise cost much easily then what we could have a decade earlier...

If above given statement has even an iota of truth then i am not sure what on this earth will make us soften our stand which we did not when the going was real tough as compared to now(in relative terms)???

This is really a very reasonable summing up.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi

Pakistanis have always had the better and daring plans. Kargil was a masterstroke. Unfortunately Pakistanis overestimated their capability to pull it off. I mean you could always plan to land on the moon, but you gotta consider your capabilities.

They just sent brave soldiers to die without any support, you can only hope for that much of bravery from a soldier.

India had it's options open in using it's airforce since it was it's territory according to ratified maPs. If you get a chance do watch Pakistani soldiers interviews, they were being massacred while running away barehanded and surviving on sugar for 10 days straight. How can you blame them for surrendering in face of overwhelming force.

Once Pakistan signs those maps, it knows what's in store for it if it tries to breach it, I'd assume that much of intelligence in Pakistani officers to avoid another massacre like kargil

While agreeing with the bulk of your note, I just wanted you to clarify what you implied in your third paragraph. It is a little ambiguous. The Air Force was not involved. The maximum casualties occurred when Pakistani troops were pulling out, due to long-range artillery fire. I hope we are both saying the same thing.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes, it should be resolved. Its a waste of resources.

Agree on the AGPL, make it permanent and agree to abide by it.

 

[R0H1T]

World can't trust us.

Just shows how untrustworthy you are !

 

[SHAMK9]

We can't trust pakistan.

Don't, it makes us sound daring which is true:no

 

[Rajputana]

While agreeing with the bulk of your note, I just wanted you to clarify what you implied in your third paragraph. It is a little ambiguous. The Air Force was not involved. The maximum casualties occurred when Pakistani troops were pulling out, due to long-range artillery fire. I hope we are both saying the same thing.

The airforce was bOmbing them all the way back to their bases and then some.

Some of this was in breach of the rules but was overlooked nevertheless.

I am not in exact info of the relative lethality of arty in this, however I can assure

you of the debilitating effect iaf had having heard it from pak pow at R&R Delhi.

You are a veteran I assume, a couple Of drinks can buy a lot if friendly chat at sybroto park I assure you.

 

[Sergi]

After reading your response, I completely agree that there is no hope. You will not change, but will continue your jingoism fight_to_the_last_jawan approach as long as you can skulk behind a keyboard.

The GoI is in favour of a negotiated solution, provided that the Army agrees.

The Army is agreeable, contingent on Pakistan agreeing to document the current actual ground position. Pakistan believes that this amounts to freezing that as the permanent border, and objects to it as the line occupied by Indian troops is west of north of the last mapped point, therefore erroneous, in favour of India.

That is where the matter is, not at an unthinking rejection of any proposal or the other. But expecting you to know that, far alone understanding that, is a lost cause, as you have taken pains to prove.

So much for bombastic mis-statements to feed a vicarious need for military glory. And so much for even basic knowledge of our stand on the subject.

I was hoping a polite and less attitude answer but it's fine too. So I can express myself good too in this manner

With all due respect even you are not doing better than skulk behind a keyboard. Please again Don't have hope.
GOI is always in favour of negotiations in everything. That's the jem of democracy govt. provided army agrees cause they are the one who has to fight for that so called useless ice.

And thank you very much on the note on my basic knowledge. When it is said our stand Plz make it your stand. Army is not agree with your stand. Though army will obey GOI decision. Cuz its IA. You are so closed with your so called perfect knowledge and sorry to say arrogance and attitude bro. No one India is war Moran or dieing for glorification of Millitary power.
Kindly open yourself to the other side of view. My way is only good song.
And plus their is no need to humiliate any one without reason to prove your point. Knowledge should make people polite and help full not arrogant.
I am sorry for some words in this post. But you left me no choice.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The airforce was bOmbing them all the way back to their bases and then some.

Some of this was in breach of the rules but was overlooked nevertheless.

I am not in exact info of the relative lethality of arty in this, however I can assure

you of the debilitating effect iaf had having heard it from pak pow at R&R Delhi.

You are a veteran I assume, a couple Of drinks can buy a lot if friendly chat at sybroto park I assure you.

As a matter of fact, the IAF Scrupulously avoided crossing the LAC; this was one of the constraints of that campaign. Even the Army would have liked to have attacked from the Gilgit side, but this was firmly agreed by all that there would be NO violation of the borders. The first phase of the aerial campaign was a dismal one; our ordnance did nothing to disturb the langars from normal heights, and when our planes came down low, one was shot down by a MANPAD. Then we used choppers to do the spotting and choppers got shot down by MANPADs. In the second phase, using the Mirages to deliver precision guided munitions, there was a huge improvement.

Casualties during their pullout were all due to artillery.

About my personal details, these are strewn all over, but I will pull it all together in a personal mail to you shortly. As for the stories, some will no doubt come out on PDF sooner or later; some will both enrage and sadden our hosts, and can never be told. Not in public. Your offer sounds good.

I was hoping a polite and less attitude answer but it's fine too. So I can express myself good too in this manner

With all due respect even you are not doing better than skulk behind a keyboard. Please again Don't have hope.
GOI is always in favour of negotiations in everything. That's the jem of democracy govt. provided army agrees cause they are the one who has to fight for that so called useless ice.

And thank you very much on the note on my basic knowledge. When it is said our stand Plz make it your stand. Army is not agree with your stand. Though army will obey GOI decision. Cuz its IA. You are so closed with your so called perfect knowledge and sorry to say arrogance and attitude bro. No one India is war Moran or dieing for glorification of Millitary power.
Kindly open yourself to the other side of view. My way is only good song.
And plus their is no need to humiliate any one without reason to prove your point. Knowledge should make people polite and help full not arrogant.
I am sorry for some words in this post. But you left me no choice.

Unlike you, before placing myself behind a keyboard, I paid my dues.

 

[Sergi]

As a matter of fact, the IAF Scrupulously avoided crossing the LAC; this was one of the constraints of that campaign. Even the Army would have liked to have attacked from the Gilgit side, but this was firmly agreed by all that there would be NO violation of the borders. The first phase of the aerial campaign was a dismal one; our ordnance did nothing to disturb the langars from normal heights, and when our planes came down low, one was shot down by a MANPAD. Then we used choppers to do the spotting and choppers got shot down by MANPADs. In the second phase, using the Mirages to deliver precision guided munitions, there was a huge improvement.

Casualties during their pullout were all due to artillery.

About my personal details, these are strewn all over, but I will pull it all together in a personal mail to you shortly. As for the stories, some will no doubt come out on PDF sooner or later; some will both enrage and sadden our hosts, and can never be told. Not in public. Your offer sounds good.



Unlike you, before placing myself behind a keyboard, I paid my dues.

That's very Buick answer on behalf of you. Do you even know who I am or what I do to say unlike me ???
Any ways sorry for bothering you. Keep on YOUR good work. And ignore this post and don't reply. Thank you