It's time to resolve Siachen, says Kayani

[Joe Shearer]

That is because they don't want the burden of having to defend the argument around sunk costs of maintaining a useless occupation. The people need to be told that its important to keep the 20 year old narrative intact, when the reality is that if both scaled back from the glacier, these is nothing of a strategic advantage to be lost. You cannot sever Pakistan's link with China and we certainly cannot influence the Indian presence in IoK through Siachen unless both sides have plans to hop over the terrain and capture additional territory (I am joking of course).

Obviously, both sides will stick to their positions if nothing comes of it, but pragmatism should prevail becasue there is nothing strategic to gain from maintaining current positions. The simple explanation for us being there is that you should not be there and the same goes for you. If you can understand this, then none of the other theories around strategic advantage matter because they were conjured up to support the basic premise of not letting the other occupy one's territory.

Please take a look at the italicised bits in post 27.

Oops! You've looked at it! Sorry.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well,why people is proud of its own country?Most probably just because its country own something remarkable could not be found elsewhere.

Ah, I see now. My apologies for the slow reaction.

There are a great number of things that we take pride in, rightly or wrongly. Many of them are cultural in nature. But your question was probably about geographical features that are pleasing.

These would include the mountain Kanchanjunga, or Kanchendzonga, the third largest in the world. It has a very pleasing pyramidal shape and looks rather more imposing than either of the two taller mountains. The best part is that from the popular hill resort of Darjeeling, from view windows, the mountain looks very close, close enough to fall into the room! A delightful sight in the rays of the early morning sun, or the setting sun.

The Himalayas in general stretch across the top of the country. It becomes a comforting sight, which explains why Indians get so disturbed by Chinese claims on the border; the thought of any foreign force on this side of the Himalayas is very unsettling for any Indian. Easiest access to these mountains is in the state of Uttaranchal; it contains the sources of two of the sacred rivers of the Hindus, and many Hindus make a pilgrimage to these sites, and to temples on the way.

Another geographical feature that we cherish is the trijunction at Kanyakumari, the southernmost tip of the South Asian peninsula, where the waters of the Arabian Sea, the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean meet. Thousands flock there every year.

The Great Indian Desert is an attraction; nobody is exactly proud of it, but it attracts people, especially people from the lush, green parts, which are always wet and humid, to marvel at how other people live in conditions so dry.

Similar, but different, is the Rann of Kutch, a basin of land almost at the border with Pakistan, which floods up during the monsoons, but is dry the rest of the year. It is a lonely, desolate place, but a great place for animal- and bird-lovers to visit. It is known for its flamingos and wild *****.

I hope that gives you some idea. No doubt other Indian contributors may add to this list, or modify it or amend it.

 

[Killswitch]

India left its posts un-guarded in 199 during the winter. That year Nawaz Shariff was talking peace with India. When Indian troops go back to the posts in spring Pakistani troops had occupied and fortified them.

If India leaves Saichen, the same thing will happen. To hand over Saichen to Pakistan is an insult to every soldier who ever died for the country.

 

[Son of Mountains]

on siachen issue, both india-pakistan are getting futile mortalities. This zone should be blocked by a mutual agreement in a rational sense

 

[Tractor]

Ah, I see now. My apologies for the slow reaction.

There are a great number of things that we take pride in, rightly or wrongly. Many of them are cultural in nature. But your question was probably about geographical features that are pleasing.

These would include the mountain Kanchanjunga, or Kanchendzonga, the third largest in the world. It has a very pleasing pyramidal shape and looks rather more imposing than either of the two taller mountains. The best part is that from the popular hill resort of Darjeeling, from view windows, the mountain looks very close, close enough to fall into the room! A delightful sight in the rays of the early morning sun, or the setting sun.

The Himalayas in general stretch across the top of the country. It becomes a comforting sight, which explains why Indians get so disturbed by Chinese claims on the border; the thought of any foreign force on this side of the Himalayas is very unsettling for any Indian. Easiest access to these mountains is in the state of Uttaranchal; it contains the sources of two of the sacred rivers of the Hindus, and many Hindus make a pilgrimage to these sites, and to temples on the way.

Another geographical feature that we cherish is the trijunction at Kanyakumari, the southernmost tip of the South Asian peninsula, where the waters of the Arabian Sea, the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean meet. Thousands flock there every year.

The Great Indian Desert is an attraction; nobody is exactly proud of it, but it attracts people, especially people from the lush, green parts, which are always wet and humid, to marvel at how other people live in conditions so dry.

Similar, but different, is the Rann of Kutch, a basin of land almost at the border with Pakistan, which floods up during the monsoons, but is dry the rest of the year. It is a lonely, desolate place, but a great place for animal- and bird-lovers to visit. It is known for its flamingos and wild *****.

I hope that gives you some idea. No doubt other Indian contributors may add to this list, or modify it or amend it.

I must admit Indian landscapes by two ends of strip-shaped Nepal are most gorgeous.Nada Davi,Kamet and Kanchengjunga are all most imposing mountains especially when viewing from southern points.

 

[blain2]

Please take a look at the italicised bits in post 27.

Oops! You've looked at it! Sorry.

I did and agreed.

India left its posts un-guarded in 199 during the winter. That year Nawaz Shariff was talking peace with India. When Indian troops go back to the posts in spring Pakistani troops had occupied and fortified them.

If India leaves Saichen, the same thing will happen. To hand over Saichen to Pakistan is an insult to every soldier who ever died for the country.

Well this goes both ways. We trusted that India would not move troops to Siachen, but using your argument, we too were cheated due to the IA deployment first. Time to move on beyond absolutist positions.

 

[KS]

Well this goes both ways. We trusted that India would not move troops to Siachen, but using your argument, we too were cheated due to the IA deployment first. Time to move on beyond absolutist positions.

Well it was not exactly as you said.

Siachen - a no-man's land - was shown as Pakistani land in international mountaneering magazines and maps & to check this cartographic aggression Col.Narinder Kumar led an expedition to chart the glaciers. This was mistook by Pak Army as occupation and it decided to assert its authority over Siachen.India got wind of it and raced first.

Anyway let bygones be bygones. There is history and then there is today's reality. Both countries should accept & authenticate the AGPL and bring down their soldiers. Anything less than that would not be acceptable to India and as time goes Indian position will only harden. And I'm sure PA also would have acted same if the roles were reversed.

 

[Sergi]

<sigh> this assessment was by a very senior person with 40 years of service in Kashmir, ending as the right hand man of the Chief Minister in his last assignment. I hope armchair strategists like Sergi get the point.

Yes that summary on BR is representative of Indian points of view. That fellow Patel was talking through his hat about trade in Gujrat and Siachen. The trade route from Leh to Yarkand which is both old and well traversed till 1948 went up from Leh through Aksai Chin to Daulet Beg Oldi the pass in the Karakoram into Yarkand. The path is littered with bleached bones which in fact marked the way. Daulet Beg Oldi means Daulet Beg died here. The route up Siachen leads no where but to the heights at Indira col.
As to the defense of Leh, I don't agree at all. The Shyok river valley leads to Skardu where the Shyok joins the Indus. The Nubra river valley which is where the mouth of Siachen is, descends south to join the Shyok valley. I don't see why Pakistan would first take a Division up Saltoro to Siachen and then descend down to Nubra. It could be done of course if Rube Goldberg was the general in charge, to demonstrate how not to plan an attack. Besides; from Nubra the attackers would have to scale the 17500* feet Khardungla pass to get into the Leh valley. In 1948 the attackers did try to take Leh for Pakistan, but they used the Shyok valley route, not Siachen.




We can't clean the sacred Ganga and you want to suggest that we will clean, in times of war or in times of peace, the Shyok and the Nubra?

I hope armchair strategists like Sergi get the point: don't hope anything. Armchair strategist like sergi or the actually STRATEGISTS who pull the strings don't belive in your or whatever 40 yr experience fellow saying this. GOI nor army is in favour leaving the posts. You can bounce as much as you want with your theory but you can't show anyone in actual power favouring it. So you are also a worthless keyboard strategist right now. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT

We can't clean Ganga. Yes we are not totally successful but conditions is better. It's inefficient management of the programme not the the ability to do so. So leave it it's out of your Proffesional status.
Everybody has a opinion that doesn't make him right or wrong. These decisions are taken in the best interests of country. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS TOO
Plus read the post below this. This is how our neighbours think

 

[DV RULES]

Leaving positions from Siachen will be another drawback for Pakistan. That's all BS spoken by Nawas and military leaders. India sitting across LOC not to defend LOC but looking for more. Well, suppose both countries will reach on an agreement to call forces on 84's position so what is guaranty that India will not invade in future with support of next possible radical and conservative government?

What is the guaranty that India will not attack with full force to get whole Siachen area? We can't trust India for even 1 mm of Land. Moreover all this talking about diverting finance from Siachen and spending money on people is utter nonsense to make people more stupid; why because everybody know that this money as usual will bypass people and fell into pockets of generals or politicians rather than buying useful technology to defend country or start public welfare programs respectively.. Good focus indeed.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I hope armchair strategists like Sergi get the point: don't hope anything. Armchair strategist like sergi or the actually STRATEGISTS who pull the strings don't belive in your or whatever 40 yr experience fellow saying this. GOI nor army is in favour leaving the posts. You can bounce as much as you want with your theory but you can't show anyone in actual power favouring it. So you are also a worthless keyboard strategist right now. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT

We can't clean Ganga. Yes we are not totally successful but conditions is better. It's inefficient management of the programme not the the ability to do so. So leave it it's out of your Proffesional status.
Everybody has a opinion that doesn't make him right or wrong. These decisions are taken in the best interests of country. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS TOO
Plus read the post below this. This is how our neighbours think

After reading your response, I completely agree that there is no hope. You will not change, but will continue your jingoism fight_to_the_last_jawan approach as long as you can skulk behind a keyboard.

The GoI is in favour of a negotiated solution, provided that the Army agrees.

The Army is agreeable, contingent on Pakistan agreeing to document the current actual ground position. Pakistan believes that this amounts to freezing that as the permanent border, and objects to it as the line occupied by Indian troops is west of north of the last mapped point, therefore erroneous, in favour of India.

That is where the matter is, not at an unthinking rejection of any proposal or the other. But expecting you to know that, far alone understanding that, is a lost cause, as you have taken pains to prove.

So much for bombastic mis-statements to feed a vicarious need for military glory. And so much for even basic knowledge of our stand on the subject.

 

[karan.1970]

After reading your response, I completely agree that there is no hope. You will not change, but will continue your jingoism fight_to_the_last_jawan approach as long as you can skulk behind a keyboard.

The GoI is in favour of a negotiated solution, provided that the Army agrees.

The Army is agreeable, contingent on Pakistan agreeing to document the current actual ground position. Pakistan believes that this amounts to freezing that as the permanent border, and objects to it as the line occupied by Indian troops is west of north of the last mapped point, therefore erroneous, in favour of India.

That is where the matter is, not at an unthinking rejection of any proposal or the other. But expecting you to know that, far alone understanding that, is a lost cause, as you have taken pains to prove.

So much for bombastic mis-statements to feed a vicarious need for military glory. And so much for even basic knowledge of our stand on the subject.

Quick question.. Kargil posts were mapped too..What stops another idiot like Musharraf doing what he did in Kargil? Is there a single part of border (intl or otherwise) between India and Pakistan which is unmanned.. Then what is different with Siachen ? Just that its difficult to man.. Just like Kargil peaks were in 1999 (am sure with 13 years of technology advancements, siachen is only as difficult to man today as Kargil peaks were in 1999)

 

[Roybot]

@ Joe Shearer

If the Siachen Glacier is really of no strategic value, why doesn't Pakistan just accept India's position, demarcate the border in the region, and then both sides withdraw their troop, end of story

 

[Coltsfan]

@ Joe Shearer

If the Siachen Glacier is really of no strategic value, why doesn't Pakistan just accept India's position, demarcate the border in the region, and then both sides withdraw their troop, end of story

Pakistani Army won't let that happen.........

 

[Rajputana]

@ Joe Shearer

If the Siachen Glacier is really of no strategic value, why doesn't Pakistan just accept India's position, demarcate the border in the region, and then both sides withdraw their troop, end of story

It's a war of grits.

If you can go to that lengths financially and human cost, your adversary has an idea of your resolve.

Unfortunately to prove your grit, the price is lives, and Pakistan has realized it can afford neither finances nor human costs.

Sad but the reality.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We can't clean Ganga. Yes we are not totally successful but conditions is better. It's inefficient management of the programme not the the ability to do so.

And in what way do you think that what can't be done in the reasonable conditions of the plains will suddenly become doable in the high mountains?

So leave it it's out of your Proffesional status.

Something burning somewhere? You can't even spell professional. That lack of fundamental skills is not opinion, it is publicly displayed fact.

Everybody has a opinion that doesn't make him right or wrong. These decisions are taken in the best interests of country. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS TOO

The opinion, and the decisions being taken, are not connected. Everyone has an opinion; not all opinions are taken into account. Decisions are taken on the basis of expert opinion. Not every opinion is informed, let alone expert.

Plus read the post below this. This is how our neighbours think

This is one post. There are also several more like it. And against that, several hundred posts from Pakistanis saying that it was time that both sides came to their senses. Two fanboys twittering at each other do not form official policy on either side. Experts do, like the person quoted earlier.