It's time to resolve Siachen, says Kayani

[Joe Shearer]

Chinese were taught to be proud of Everest on our border,is Indian taught something like this?

I didn't quite understand.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well its not my opinion. I'm not that qualified. It is the opinion of a former RAW chief and a General who himself commanded Siachen for some time.

Sure, they are experts (at least Raghavan is; there are lots of questions about Vikram Sood, whose original account is so daffy that it could have come from a fanboy with 50 posts under his belt).

I request you to look at the map and see for yourself.

 

[Tractor]

I didn't quite understand.

Well,why people is proud of its own country?Most probably just because its country own something remarkable could not be found elsewhere.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

There is nobody sitting on siachen...........the glacier.

The Indian army is sitting atop the soltoro ridge which is to the west of the glacier and pakistani troops are on the slopes of this ridge further west.

So, the demilitarization has to be from the ridge and not the glacier..........

Pitty very few people on this forum know anything about the actual troop positions on the ground and they start giving advice as to demilitarize this and that ..................morons.

 

[Tractor]

There is nobody sitting on siachen...........the glacier.

The Indian army is sitting atop the soltoro ridge which is to the west of the glacier and pakistani troops are on the slopes of this ridge further west.

So, the demilitarization has to be from the ridge and not the glacier..........

Pitty very few people on this forum know anything about the actual troop positions on the ground and they start giving advice as to demilitarize this and that ..................morons.

What about the ridges east to the galcier logically must be there?

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

What about the ridges east to the galcier logically must be there?

No .......There is Karakoram range to the east ......................fact is the armies of both countries are facing each other towards the west of the glacier ............on the east side its the area illegally ceded by pakistan to china that is Saksham valley.
There are no pakistanis on the eastern side of the glacier.

 

[Bang Galore]

Even though I am very sad for the loss of life of our beloved Soldiers, I like the Idea of our Soldiers sitting at 22,000 feet AMSL because it gives them the opportunity to conduct military exercises at that height. How many Armies in the world can make that claim ?

The only exercise that anyone is likely to be conducting at 22000 feet is slow breathing. The Siachen glacier is not at 22000 feet; that would be ridiculous. Some heights on the Saltoro ridge are and it can be reasonably assumed that they are not conducting elaborate exercises there. Pakistanis are generally on the lower slopes sometimes directly beneath Indian positions.

And the casualty rate on both sides? Casualties due to high altitude, not due to enemy action.

Do you know that around 44,000 tonnes of solid waste have accumulated, right where the ice melts into water and forms the sources of our sub- continental rivers?

Are you sure this is worth it?

Nothing special about Siachen on that score. The cussedness is not limited only to that place but shows itself right along the LoC especially in the now necessary continuous occupation of the Kargil-Drass heights. Siachen is just the most glamorised conflict; no point in serious observers getting carried away with all the media hoopla.

 

[Tractor]

No .......There is Karakoram range to the east ......................fact is the armies of both countries are facing each other towards the west of the glacier ............on the east side its the area illegally ceded by pakistan to china that is Saksham valley.
There are no pakistanis on the eastern side of the glacier.

Anyhow we have no land dispute with Pakistan.There is a saying that China committed the Hunza valley to Pakistan for exchange.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Linking up over the Siachen topography? Who in his right mind would think this or do this? Highly trained mountaineers are needed to travel there, or troops acclimatised to that atmosphere. 'Linking up' is not joining two points on a map. Please look at the ground realities there before coming to any conclusion. And please do not take expert views on board without scrutinising the feasibility of what they suggest.

That is true, its hardly the place for pitched battles to take place. Siachen is all about the glacier.

 

[Rajputana]

There is nobody sitting on siachen...........the glacier.

The Indian army is sitting atop the soltoro ridge which is to the west of the glacier and pakistani troops are on the slopes of this ridge further west.

So, the demilitarization has to be from the ridge and not the glacier..........

Pitty very few people on this forum know anything about the actual troop positions on the ground and they start giving advice as to demilitarize this and that ..................morons.

Actually there are at least two Indian posts in public knowledge right on top of the glacier. One of them is the Kumar camp named after Narender Kumar, the first person to map the glacier and lead Indias mission on it.

Although you are right that heights occupied are to the west of the Glacier along Saltoro ridge. Effectively Pakistanis sitting below cannot even see the Glacier itself.

 

[Sergi]

Linking up over the Siachen topography? Who in his right mind would think this or do this? Highly trained mountaineers are needed to travel there, or troops acclimatised to that atmosphere. 'Linking up' is not joining two points on a map. Please look at the ground realities there before coming to any conclusion. And please do not take expert views on board without scrutinising the feasibility of what they suggest.

I am glad you are not the one who makes strategies for India Yes linking up is as simple as joing points on Maps if they are unguarded. Soldiers are already there from both sides. How hard it will be for third side to be there. Imagine the senario. Please think before commenting. Don't be Nehru.

And the casualty rate on both sides? Casualties due to high altitude, not due to enemy action.

Do you know that around 44,000 tonnes of solid waste have accumulated, right where the ice melts into water and forms the sources of our sub- continental rivers?

Are you sure this is worth it?

Yes it is worth of that. Rivers can be cleaned down in basin if needed. But once enemy is on top with his gun site on your head it's most difficult to change. Don't tell me that you preffer death of soldiers than pollution of rivers. On Indians side there is no death in 8 yrs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am glad you are not the one who makes strategies for India Yes linking up is as simple as joing points on Maps if they are unguarded. Soldiers are already there from both sides. How hard it will be for third side to be there. Imagine the senario. Please think before commenting. Don't be Nehru.

<sigh> this assessment was by a very senior person with 40 years of service in Kashmir, ending as the right hand man of the Chief Minister in his last assignment. I hope armchair strategists like Sergi get the point.

Yes that summary on BR is representative of Indian points of view. That fellow Patel was talking through his hat about trade in Gujrat and Siachen. The trade route from Leh to Yarkand which is both old and well traversed till 1948 went up from Leh through Aksai Chin to Daulet Beg Oldi the pass in the Karakoram into Yarkand. The path is littered with bleached bones which in fact marked the way. Daulet Beg Oldi means Daulet Beg died here. The route up Siachen leads no where but to the heights at Indira col.
As to the defense of Leh, I don't agree at all. The Shyok river valley leads to Skardu where the Shyok joins the Indus. The Nubra river valley which is where the mouth of Siachen is, descends south to join the Shyok valley. I don't see why Pakistan would first take a Division up Saltoro to Siachen and then descend down to Nubra. It could be done of course if Rube Goldberg was the general in charge, to demonstrate how not to plan an attack. Besides; from Nubra the attackers would have to scale the 17500* feet Khardungla pass to get into the Leh valley. In 1948 the attackers did try to take Leh for Pakistan, but they used the Shyok valley route, not Siachen.

Yes it is worth of that. Rivers can be cleaned down in basin if needed. But once enemy is on top with his gun site on your head it's most difficult to change. Don't tell me that you preffer death of soldiers than pollution of rivers. On Indians side there is no death in 8 yrs.

We can't clean the sacred Ganga and you want to suggest that we will clean, in times of war or in times of peace, the Shyok and the Nubra?

 

[jabalultariq]

Why is general sahib proposing demilitarization , dont we have a government and foreign affairs is one of its functions ? does'nt this explains how incompetent and useless our government is ? or am I missing something

 

[Great Sachin]

If everybody agree to consider LOC as international border..All the problems will be solve in 1 day

 

[blain2]

That is an opinion of one school of thought.

Another school of thought comprising the likes of Vikram Sood, Gen.Raghavan stress on the strategic value of Indian control over Siachen on the ground - that siachen itself may be worthless, but it prevents Pak and China linking up though the Karakoram pass and pose a threat to Ladakh.

That is because they don't want the burden of having to defend the argument around sunk costs of maintaining a useless occupation. The people need to be told that its important to keep the 20 year old narrative intact, when the reality is that if both scaled back from the glacier, these is nothing of a strategic advantage to be lost. You cannot sever Pakistan's link with China and we certainly cannot influence the Indian presence in IoK through Siachen unless both sides have plans to hop over the terrain and capture additional territory (I am joking of course).

Obviously, both sides will stick to their positions if nothing comes of it, but pragmatism should prevail becasue there is nothing strategic to gain from maintaining current positions. The simple explanation for us being there is that you should not be there and the same goes for you. If you can understand this, then none of the other theories around strategic advantage matter because they were conjured up to support the basic premise of not letting the other occupy one's territory.

If everybody agree to consider LOC as international border..All the problems will be solve in 1 day

The problem is the LOC does not extend across the Siachen glacier. Our British masters thought we would be foolish to fight over a useless glacier so they did not bother drawing the line. LoC issue caters to the positions across Kashmir and not further up north.