Israelli oppression of an occupied people

[vsdoc]

Jana, please add "extremist fundamentalist" also as a select 4th category to your classification above. I do not think they can be clubbed together with the Conservatives. Conservative has very different connotations to us in India at least.

Cheers, Doc

 

[muse]

Reading your posts about many issues where you somehow one way or the other way try to link it with religion more specifically with Islam and then you call for banning all those members who differ with your view and advocate Islamic teachings (the real one not the self-imposed ones) you call them extremists and press the admins for banning them.

Jana, in every argument, it is best to discern what is the heart of the position being held and if one disagrees to challenege it at the heart, at the citadel, at it' strongest - for instance comunism's claim was that it was "scientific" in a era when that term meant something it does not mean now and of course it was challeneged on that basis and it never recoved from that challenege.

I always try and see if I can understand the intellectual motivation, the intellectual framework of a particular position and if I disagree I go for the heart of it - it's a effective and honest method. So if you find that in my challenege that religion seems to figure prominently, it's because the positions I challenege have religion or a religious framework at it's heart.

You will note thatthere is athread about women pilots, now if someone's position is that there must be XYZ and they justify it by religion, well the challeneg to it will necesasarily have to be religion, right? understand?

It's like the term "Islmaists" some took offence - look it's a free world, they are welcome to take offence or not - but if someone is justifying the use of political violence by pointing ot religious motivation, is offering a religious justification for political violence - then we are left with two choices, either we must agree that Islam is extremist, or we must discern, we must disentangle, separete, what is the religion of faith and what is the ideology that is using religonof faith.

Jana, I am sure you know this, but other readers may not, I invite all readers to look at the threads in which Pakistan is faced with problems, 9 out of 10 are due to a conception of religion as a political ideoogy. See, jana, Neo liberal, COnservative or moderate, at the end of the day, each positon must be justifed, right ?? And I justify my position so that it meets the test of reason, of morality, of ethics.

And yes, ain't I grand? The bottom line is that if what are called islamists or Takfiris are seen as failing or unable to reason, why blame me - there is a very famous line, I wish for you to remember:

Utopians. when the results of the testing of their theories, find their theories are not confirmed, change not their theories, but the results of the tests of their theories -- this is essentially why Islamist takfiri find that people do not accept their argument.

 

[muse]

Guys - apologies - must go -- lets pick it up later - but gotta go.

 

[Spring Onion]

^^^ Please add "extremist fundamentalist" also as a select 4th category to your classification above. I do not think they can be clubbed together with the Conservatives. Conservative has very different connotations to us in India at least.

Cheers, Doc

According to Islamic definition everything that exceeds a limit is extremism, be it even worship. So anyone can be extremist be he is from the conservative side or from the liberal or neo-liberal side.

 

[r3alist]

The caption was says "Jewish man.." and you say there was no religious color to it? hmm How about "Muslim woman" did that offer religious color?? I don't think you are being open to that possiblity, it's like ignoring a 800lbs gorilla in the room.

well its reasonable to assume the women was muslim since she was wearing a headscarf, also the guy looked like a jew with his hat and curly hair, lesser standards/metrics have been used before, take it up with the poster rather than immediately accuse him of being this and that.

It is more than understandable that Muslims on a daily basis feel and generally are discriminated against, because of the security policies enacted after the takfiri attacks of 9/11 and the Madrid and London bombings --- but look, place the blame for this where it belongs and it belongs on the takfiri, doesn't it?? If you and I were in Pakistan wearing chaddars and approached police or soldiers, what would be their response? What is the response of security personnel when a Burkha approaches them?? You and I and all of us know all too well what the response is -- so put the blame where it belongs on the takfiri, not on people simply trying to do their best to be safe - sure you and I have feelings but so does the complete stranger who approaches us and has kids waiting for him or her at home.

this is a somewhat mish mash response

we were tlaking about the media and how sensationalist it is regarding muslims, is that not a wrong from behalf of the media to be so antagonistic?

yes, two wrongs dont make a right but lets get some balance and perspective.

Look we all have baggage, of every kind, but ought we go about promoting religious hatred?

then you could censor a few of your comments.

also, for a member of a pak def forum you seen more concerned with protecting the interests of other groups, i am not sure.

religious hated is never a good thing, moreso when it reinforces stereotypes and is counter productive, if this is what you are saying then i agree, but then its not only pakistanis who are indulging in religious hatred.

in a butter will not melt in that mouth, way that far from provoking religious hatred, merely the suffering of a particular group was being highlighted - indeed what was being done was exactly the opposite, the victimization of one religious group at the hgands of another was editorialized - I put it you that that was both dishonest and dangerous - how much more hatred do we really need?

good and fair point, but this relates to the point i made in my first post on this thread, what is the worser offence, the actual crime? or the portrayal/depiction of it?

perhaps this will give me an indication of your priorities.

also once again, the facts we do know about events in israel can tell us something about the attack on the women, we can make some reasoned assumptions, can we not?

 

[vsdoc]

Jana said "According to Islamic definition everything that exceeds a limit is extremism, be it even worship. So anyone can be extremist be he is from the conservative side or from the liberal or neo-liberal side."

Which is why I said Extremist Fundamentalist. How does Islam look at those .... as an extension of Conservative?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Spring Onion]

Which is why I said Extremist Fundamentalist. How does Islam look at those .... as an extension of Conservative?

Cheers, Doc

According to Islam there is nothing called Conservatives or Liberals or neo-liberals, Islam says be choose the right path and the right path is the path of "aitidal" and aitidal means moderate path.

So anything that deviates from moderate path harms the society.

 

[Kasrkin]

I've merged the threads. This has the potential to turn into something the defence.pk policy does not tolerate. So you best watch yourselves, NO personal remarks or attacks will be tolerated. Be civil and respectable. Otherwise you know what will happen. Mr. Bezerk will be keeping an eye.

 

[Beskar]

Thread reopened.

 

[SeaGull]

THIS IS UTTERLY BLOODY RIDICULOUS!!

 

[abdulalimkhan]

sad. should be punished

 

[Developereo]

Question to anyone who disagrees with the thread title:

How would you have titled the thread?

Keep in mind that this is not a random crime; the religion of the perpetrator and victim are central to the motivation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Taliban Shot school children 2 days ago. But to you, they are "muslims", right?

This is the second thread I have come across this line of 'attack' for lack of a better word.

Unless those of you pursuing this line of attack can illustrate that the poster your comments are directed at condones the violence of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, while condemning the violence of the Israelis, this is a flawed line of argument.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the atrocities committed in Israel and by Israel, so long as one takes a consistent position on these issues.

Now please, stop hijacking threads - stick to the topic. There are valid arguments about the kind of language used - generalizations against all Jews or all Israelis - make those arguments instead of personal attacks implying the posters condone one set of atrocities (Taliban AQ) and not the other (Israeli/Indian), unless you can actually prove that point with reference to the posters past posts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Taliban Shot school children 2 days ago. But to you, they are "muslims", right?

This is the second thread I have come across this line of 'attack' for lack of a better word.

Unless those of you pursuing this line of attack can illustrate that the poster your comments are directed at condones the violence of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, while condemning the violence of the Israelis, this is a flawed line of argument.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the atrocities committed in Israel and by Israel, so long as one takes a consistent position on these issues.

Now please, stop hijacking threads - stick to the topic. There are valid arguments about the kind of language used - generalizations against all Jews or all Israelis - make those arguments instead of personal attacks implying the posters condone one set of atrocities (Taliban AQ) and not the other (Israeli/Indian), unless you can actually prove that point with reference to the posters past posts.

 

[Beskar]

Question to anyone who disagrees with the thread title:

How would you have titled the thread?

Keep in mind that this is not a random crime; the religion of the perpetrator and victim are central to the motivation.

"Israeli man, harassing a Palestinian woman."

The nationalities of these two individuals in question are more than enough to understand the motivation behind this act of public harassment.