Israel’s Antimissile System Attracts Potential Buyers

[500]

@500 , is there an initial boost phase (powered flight) for Fajr-5 or is it powered throughout its flight?

Ballistic missiles are not powered through their flight. Thats why they are ballistic.

same range does not translate into same speed. You need to consider other factors like elevation, initial speed.

Max range determines max speed.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Ballistic missiles are not powered through their flight. Thats why they are ballistic.


Max range determines max speed.

Nasr operational range is 60 Km, but can be extended to 180 Km

 

[notorious_eagle]

Hamas fired 1500 rockets, 421 were intercepted, 58 landed in populated areas, rest in open areas and in Gaza itself.

How many Nasr rockets has Pakistan?

NASR is a solid fuelled battlefield range ballistic missile. Its a tactical nuclear warhead that uses a sophisticated guidance of an electro optical guidance system that homes in on the target with pin-point accuracy. Its a completely different system compared to the unguided fire crackers that Hamas uses.

Hamas fired 1500 rockets; compare that to almost thousand artillery shells, mortars, MBRLS that both Pakistan and India will exchange in the first minute of the hostilities. All fanboy talk aside, Pakistan and India have never in history purposely targeted civilian areas. We both operate Professional Armed Forces whom consider it beneath themselves to attack civilians purposely. Iron Dome is excellent to protect civilians against asymmetric threat, but against a well armed for like PA, it does not stand a chance unless Indian Army can afford to equip every battalion with 10 batteries.

 

[500]

Nasr operational range is 60 Km, but can be extended to 180 Km

If u extend range 3 times it will be a completely new missile.

NASR is a solid fuelled battlefield range ballistic missile. Its a tactical nuclear warhead that uses a sophisticated guidance of an electro optical guidance system that homes in on the target with pin-point accuracy. Its a completely different system compared to the unguided fire crackers that Hamas uses.

Hamas fired 1500 rockets; compare that to almost thousand artillery shells, mortars, MLBS that both Pakistan and India will exchange in the first minute of the hostilities. All fanboy talk aside, Pakistan and India have never in history purposely targeted civilian areas. We both operate Professional Armed Forces whom consider it beneath themselves to attack civilians purposely. Iron Dome is excellent to protect civilians against asymmetric threat, but against a well armed for like PA, it does not stand a chance unless Indian Army can afford to equip every battalion with 10 batteries.

- I assume that 99% of shells, mortars and rockets fired were short range, not 40 km+.
- Terminal guidance does not change much the overall trajectory. Both are ballistic.
- Iron Dome can be used to protect specific targets as well like airfield, military base, power plant etc.

 

[Kloitra]

U cant have very big number of Nasr size rockets.

MBRLs are supposed to be used in large numbers. And I did mentioned artillery. Iron Dome would react to both. How many missiles can be stationed to protect, say, a forward base? (Considering it is to be placed near border.) As an example:

A Fire Power Triumph

The Indian Artillery fired over 250,000 shells, bombs and rockets during the Kargil conflict. Approximately, 5,000 Artillery shells, mortar bombs and rockets were fired daily from 300 guns, mortars and MBRLs. Such high rates of fire over long periods had not been witnessed anywhere in the world since the second World War.

Above is an exceptional case, but this is just to give you an idea of numbers involved. Let's say there are 3 batteries protecting a base (too many). That's 180 interceptors. They can be overwhelmed by cheap artillery. No need for missiles.

As I explained it does not change anything. Range is what matters.

It matters. A intercepting a ballistic missile is totally different ball game, compared to snail paced rockets and artillery shells. Even Rafael claims that it is only for rockets and artillery.

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/946.pdf

The Iron Dome is an effective and innovative mobile defense solution for countering short range rockets and 155 mm artillery shell threats with ranges of up to 70 km

Rockets would not even follow the same trajectory as a ballistic missile. They would not go out of atmosphere. But most important difference is that of speed. It directly affects the reaction time, and kill probability is greatly reduced, inversely with speed of incoming missile. For ballistic missiles, Israel has developed Arrow, which you must be aware of. Infact, it is developing a multi-layered defence for various threats. And nowhere have the developers claimed that Iron dome can be used against a ballistic missile, range not withstanding.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Nasr has same range as Fajr-5 therefore same speed.

Does the Fajr 5 use a solid propellent rocket motor like NASR does?

 

[500]

MBRLs are supposed to be used in large numbers.

Heavy caliber are not used in large numbers. Iron Dome can protect airfield or base or radar installation some 50 km away from the border.

It matters. A intercepting a ballistic missile is totally different ball game, compared to snail paced rockets and artillery shells. Even Rafael claims that it is only for rockets and artillery.

How its different? Do you understand the meaning of the world "ballistic"? Its boosting for very short period and then free falling, with little correction at terminal stage.

Rockets would not even follow the same trajectory as a ballistic missile. They would not go out of atmosphere.

That depends on range and nothing else. For example if u add GPS guidance to MLRS rocket it will became a missile, but trajectory wont change

Does the Fajr 5 use a solid propellent rocket motor like NASR does?

Of course its solid.

 

[Kloitra]

@500 my mistake. It seems Fajr-5 is a short ranged BM. Or something similar to it. Atleast it goes as fast.

Iran supplied Hamas with Fajr-5 missile technology | World news | guardian.co.uk

Meanwhile, Fars, which is affiliated to the Revolutionary Guards, published an article boasting about the capabilities of Fajr-5, which it said "changed the scene of the war between Israel and Palestinians".

"The world class Fajr-5 is a solid fuel, non-fixed wing, 333mm rocket designed and optimised for artillery missions to hit enemy's command and control, logistic, radar, communication, economic and political centres," Fars said. "It is a rocket with 75km range, a payload of 178kg and speed of 1,009 metres per second."

I am not very clear about it. Hope someone with more knowledge can shed some light on it.

How its different? Do you understand the meaning of the world "ballistic"? Its boosting for very short period and then free falling, with little correction at terminal stage.

I do understand its meaning. I was just underestimating Fajr!

 

[Jason bourne]

In order to burn the source u need to find the source.

Its range is only 10 km. How do u want to find a source of rocket that is fired from 60 km?

Can you compare it with this?

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/9/38029.pdf

Weapon location - 100 km. By the way, Iron Dome's radar can be used for air surveillance as well. It can detect planes from 470 km.

Now thats new for me can u elaborate ?

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Heavy caliber are not used in large numbers. Iron Dome can protect airfield or base or radar installation some 50 km away from the border.
Of course its solid.

No it cannot counter MBRL or artillery barrage. Do you think Nasr is the only system in PA? Nasr carries a tactical nuclear warhead that will be used against advancing IA columns. Pakistan uses china made MBRLs with a range of 120 km are enough to cause havoc in the forward areas of deployment or Army installations 50 Km from the border. Do you think PAK army will fire only 20-30 rockets per day at the time of war?

 

[rockstarIN]

Iron drome can be utilised to protect our parades etc during republic day etc. IA still install SA type old Russian stuff & AAA for such events till date.

 

[500]

Now thats new for me can u elaborate ?

Iron Dome's radar is multimission. It can be used both as artillery radar to locate source of fire (up to 100 km) and as air surveillance radar to detect and track planes, helicopters, UAVs (up to 470 km).

No it cannot counter MBRL or artillery barrage. Do you think Nasr is the only system in PA? Nasr carries a tactical nuclear warhead that will be used against advancing IA columns. Pakistan uses china made MBRLs with a range of 120 km are enough to cause havoc in the forward areas of deployment or Army installations 50 Km from the border. Do you think PAK army will fire only 20-30 rockets per day at the time of war?

I repeat: long range rockets wont be fired in large numbers. Especially if u detect their source and fire back.

 

[Viper0011.]

Iron dome will not be effective against an adversary like Pakistan army. Iron dome is designed to counter threats of asymmetrical warfare from the kind of adversaries like Hamas who don't have the capacity or resources to carry out a large scale attack, which can saturate the Iron dome batteries. Hamas only fired close to 100 rockets over the span of the recent conflict.

Just so you know, Iron Dome will intercept what you'll ask it to intercept. It will have very high success rate against SCUD type missiles or majority of the missiles that Iran has. But it will have a lower probability of kill to more maneuverable missiles. That's the case with every ABM. ID might help a lot from artillery fire and long range rockets. But it'll intercept lower flying missiles also. Then there is Arrow, PAC3, S400 for high profile missile systems.
In the case of India and Pakistan. Both of you guys have a disadvantage....that's the proximity. There are hundreds of things you guys can do to overcome or confuse the ABM / SAM systems on each end. Both of you guys are in an arms race. Interesting part is, you guys don't realize that you are in it for a very long haul. Every system has a counter system. So if one country keeps developing systems, the other keeps focusing on counter systems. That will be the lay of the land till you guys settle for Peace!!! Otherwise, welcome to the biggest arms race in the 21st century after China.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

I repeat: long range rockets wont be fired in large numbers. Especially if u detect their source and fire back.

Thats the point, Iron dome is no designed to tackle large MBRL and artllery barrages, its designed for asymmetrical warfare where the adversary will launch small scale attacks at a time like what Hamas does or what Talibans do in afganistan. Long range MBRLs (120 km), short range MBRLs (50Km) batteries (20-30 launcher vehicles) will fire 240-360 guided rockets in first salvo, forget about salvos coming later. Now, this is beyond the capability of iron dome radar that cannot target 240-360 rockets simultaneously even if it can track 200 simultaneously.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Just so you know, Iron Dome will intercept what you'll ask it to intercept. It will have very high success rate against SCUD type missiles or majority of the missiles that Iran has. But it will have a lower probability of kill to more maneuverable missiles. That's the case with every ABM. ID might help a lot from artillery fire and long range rockets. But it'll intercept lower flying missiles also. Then there is Arrow, PAC3, S400 for high profile missile systems.
In the case of India and Pakistan. Both of you guys have a disadvantage....that's the proximity. There are hundreds of things you guys can do to overcome or confuse the ABM / SAM systems on each end. Both of you guys are in an arms race. Interesting part is, you guys don't realize that you are in it for a very long haul. Every system has a counter system. So if one country keeps developing systems, the other keeps focusing on counter systems. That will be the lay of the land till you guys settle for Peace!!! Otherwise, welcome to the biggest arms race in the 21st century after China.

Arrow is for Ballistic missiles and Iron dome for short range rockets.