Israel now supplying IAF with BNET secure jam proof radios and datalinks

[Daghalodi]

Pardon me for saying this but many here believe PDF is changing into an echo chamber and I agree based on responses that all sound the same regardless of the topic under discussion.

India has never imagined a scenario where Pakistan will not attack back. It is always a given! We never doubted that! However, the 27th response was meek in that it was not powerful enough to deter India from conducting another attack like this again. Let us assume that the Balakot bombing missed its target but you cannot assume India's aggressive stance here in dropping a bomb 50+ km into Pakistan.

If you believe shooting down a mig-21 and dropping bombs close to military establishments is enough to deter India from ever attacking Pakistan, you are mistaken.

In your own world where many believe Pakistan had no hand in the Pulwama attack, India attacked Pakistan on a false flag attack, it attacked a nation which is a nuclear power and you still believe 27th successful enough? India believes it saw a Pakistan happy shooting from within its borders and failed to take the fight into India. Moreover, Pakistan has failed to accept or prove its non-involvement in Pulwama or if balakot target was indeed a madrassa and not a terror camp.

Most reports online suggest India is entitled to conduct a surgical strike, an opinion that reverberated even before the 26th.

Not 1% of the press was spent on how India attacked Pakistan on what Pakistan believes was a false flag. Not 1% of the press was spent on proving the terror camp was an Islamic school and not a terror camp. However, a large part of the press was pushed to claim invisible trophies like the MKI.

You see as a nation you failed to attack the narrative that Pakistan houses terror camps. That was your biggest defeat and will continue to be a big opportunity for India.

I know as a response, I will hear "The chai was fantastic".. Indeed it is!

Actually it was the other way around. India could not deter Pakistan from attacking it as seen on 27th Feb.

Had India gone ahead with 28th Feb 2019, Pakistan would have definately responded back. We are not detered or afraid of India.

Indians can claim whatever they want but 27th Feb shutup all the Indian Generals who were talking about a two front war after Operation Gagan Shakti.

 

[Darth Vader]

I am amazed by comments from both side but specially from Indian Side.
Every comment includes the Threshold has been changed and Pakistan didnt Nuke India which means india can do whatever it wants from future.
Lets highlight few points
Indian cold Start Doctrine. Which is Large Indian Conventional force will run through Pakistani Border and achieve its objective by capturing Pakistani Side
Did that Happen ? No will India Dare that in future no reason being Pakistani bringing Tactical Nukes.
Pakistan Will never Nuke Indian unless India threatens the exist of Pakistan by over running Pakistani Forces.

Now coming back to this Does both sides do this regularly by shelling Loc Areas Yes but major change was Use of Air Force by Indian Air Forces own account they released Spice from Indian Territory can any country stop that because of the region ? No unless you have jets right at that spot or ground units to counter that. Even that has small chances.

Now coming back to the whole episode.
1 As Major Comments from Indian side is they were ready ? If india was Ready why they didnt stopped the Pakistani Adventure on their side.
How could they Lose one Mig, one Chopper by the handa of its own forces several dead soldiers.
Pilot captured and branded by Pakistan and still claim victory.

Now point for Pakistan side Pakistan couldnt response specially not because they didnt have the economy to support that nor the political state of country.
Pakistan took a calculated risk which was acceptable for Pakistan and which paid off.
Even with all this if Pakistan mercilessly Attacked and killed multiple indian soldiers Pakistan would have became the aggressor.
1 International media Accepted Pakistani Story.
2 Indian Armed forces became laughing stock and true state of its Affair was shown by International media not by Pakistan. Which was a welcomr change for Pakistan as earlier no body condemned Indian for its aggression but all changed when Pakistan Returned Captured Indian Pilot.
3 Indian armed forces learned how outdated their tech was and if Major Air Skirmishe did happen Pakistan would be the winner not India with its Numeric Superiority.

World is not black and white.
Kashmir is a lost cause for both sides nothing has really changed beside the life of ordinary Kashmiri in IOK got harder.

Soldiers who fight they are also humans not some pawns whose life can be simply taken away so ego of some random Keyboard warrior doesn't get hurt

 

[Aasimkhan]

I give up. Another perspective cannot enter minds that are already made up but still, I will try...

The attack on 27th was meek since it gives India opportunities to attack again. The cost of the 26th was not high enough on 27th to deter India again. The very fact that you unknowingly acknowledge that India can do it again is proof enough. Such a situation was unimaginable before 26th between two potent nuclear powers!

India opened a narrow but productive space within the battle spectrum that it will exploit. Pakistan had an opportunity to close that gap once and for all but it didn't!

Feel free to disagree.

lol@"India opened a narrow but productive space within the battle spectrum that it will exploit". Well India didnt exploit it so far and more than 375 days have passed and counting--------.
If you will try to exploit again (which is already late now) you will get a bloody nose again, and again, and again. If its a boxing match we will make sure we win and you lose. It will be a slow death for you but we will win each round, and round by round we will win the match, We will make u bleed and give you a death by thousand cuts. Agar Modi itna ghairatmand hota to ab tak badla lay chuka hota but alas he is still waiting for his Rafales,

 

[Haris Ali2140]

I am amazed by comments from both side but specially from Indian Side.
Every comment includes the Threshold has been changed and Pakistan didnt Nuke India which means india can do whatever it wants from future.
Lets highlight few points
Indian cold Start Doctrine. Which is Large Indian Conventional force will run through Pakistani Border and achieve its objective by capturing Pakistani Side
Did that Happen ? No will India Dare that in future no reason being Pakistani bringing Tactical Nukes.
Pakistan Will never Nuke Indian unless India threatens the exist of Pakistan by over running Pakistani Forces.

Now coming back to this Does both sides do this regularly by shelling Loc Areas Yes but major change was Use of Air Force by Indian Air Forces own account they released Spice from Indian Territory can any country stop that because of the region ? No unless you have jets right at that spot or ground units to counter that. Even that has small chances.

Now coming back to the whole episode.
1 As Major Comments from Indian side is they were ready ? If india was Ready why they didnt stopped the Pakistani Adventure on their side.
How could they Lose one Mig, one Chopper by the handa of its own forces several dead soldiers.
Pilot captured and branded by Pakistan and still claim victory.

Now point for Pakistan side Pakistan couldnt response specially not because they didnt have the economy to support that nor the political state of country.
Pakistan took a calculated risk which was acceptable for Pakistan and which paid off.
Even with all this if Pakistan mercilessly Attacked and killed multiple indian soldiers Pakistan would have became the aggressor.
1 International media Accepted Pakistani Story.
2 Indian Armed forces became laughing stock and true state of its Affair was shown by International media not by Pakistan. Which was a welcomr change for Pakistan as earlier no body condemned Indian for its aggression but all changed when Pakistan Returned Captured Indian Pilot.
3 Indian armed forces learned how outdated their tech was and if Major Air Skirmishe did happen Pakistan would be the winner not India with its Numeric Superiority.

World is not black and white.
Kashmir is a lost cause for both sides nothing has really changed beside the life of ordinary Kashmiri in IOK got harder.

Soldiers who fight they are also humans not some pawns whose life can be simply taken away so ego of some random Keyboard warrior doesn't get hurt

Indians on SM are happy that they bombed Pakistan and made a point even if they lost a plane and shot down their own chopper, but it doesn't matter as they wanted to make a point.

But their leadership and all the western pundits were expecting that the conventional difference between India and Pakistan has grown so much that Pakistan will be roll over for India. That myth was broken and now all are scratching their heads and making new strategies. Meanwhile Indians fanboys are happy that they made a point. As an Indian analyst said that success would have been if Pakistan hadn't dared to retaliate.

 

[jk007]

Indians are happy for the following reasons:
a) Indians are very happy that we finally have a leader who has the guts to send combat aircraft across the border.
Remember, even after grave provocations like Kargil war, parliament attack & mumbai attacks, the then Indian PMs could not take the risk to send aircraft to cross the border.
b) There is sympathy for Abhinandan, as he was shot down across the border. He was not shot down in Indian space.
c) No one in India believes that Pak had an SU-30 kill. It is simply not possible to hide a fallen aircraft in India. Particularly, when so much of media is hostile to the current govt.
d) (Indians believe) Pak has got a message that they can not cross a point.
e) Status quo perfectly suits India. If the current state of affairs continues with no major escalation, then India is happy. India's primary aim is to improve it's economy.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Indians are happy for the following reasons:
a) Indians are very happy that we finally have a leader who has the guts to send combat aircraft across the border.
Remember, even after grave provocations like Kargil war, parliament attack & mumbai attacks, the then Indian PMs could not take the risk to send aircraft to cross the border.
b) There is sympathy for Abhinandan, as he was shot down across the border. He was not shot down in Indian space.
c) No one in India believes that Pak had an SU-30 kill. It is simply not possible to hide a fallen aircraft in India. Particularly, when so much of media is hostile to the current govt.
d) (Indians believe) Pak has got a message that they can not cross a point.
e) Status quo perfectly suits India. If the current state of affairs continues with no major escalation, then India is happy. India's primary aim is to improve it's economy.

Your analysis is perfect but if you note each and every point you wrote starts with India believes, India is happy, India wants. This is exactly your problem. You have no idea what rest of the world thinks about you. In your false sense of superiority lies your destruction.

 

[anathema]

Indians on SM are happy that they bombed Pakistan and made a point even if they lost a plane and shot down their own chopper, but it doesn't matter as they wanted to make a point.

But their leadership and all the western pundits were expecting that the conventional difference between India and Pakistan has grown so much that Pakistan will be roll over for India. That myth was broken and now all are scratching their heads and making new strategies. Meanwhile Indians fanboys are happy that they made a point. As an Indian analyst said that success would have been if Pakistan hadn't dared to retaliate.

You are incorrect in your assertion. India surely expected Pakistan to retaliate. Pakistani army wanted operations at Pak Army inc or Fauji Foundation to run smoothly. So what you saw - was actually public perception excercise from PAK armed forces. Strategically - that was the only objective they were seeking and they achieved it.

Infact taking a step back - India was prepared to loose planes when it cross the rubicon on feb26th - thats how important this was to India. Infact India's transparency is highly appreciable - it openly disclosed its shortcomings ( which will be plugged) and the unfortunate incident of fraticide. What exactly is Paks lessons ? You wont find much - myth is PAF and Pak army is invincible. This narrative suits us fine - coz when the ballons goes up then these perceptions are usually laid bare pretty quickly.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

You are incorrect in your assertion. India surely expected Pakistan to retaliate. Pakistani army wanted operations at Pak Army inc or Fauji Foundation to run smoothly. So what you saw - was actually public perception excercise from PAK armed forces. Strategically - that was the only objective they were seeking and they achieved it.

Infact taking a step back - India was prepared to loose planes when it cross the rubicon on feb26th - thats how important this was to India. Infact India's transparency is highly appreciable - it openly disclosed its shortcomings ( which will be plugged) and the unfortunate incident of fraticide. What exactly is Paks lessons ? You wont find much - myth is PAF and Pak army is invincible. This narrative suits us fine - coz when the ballons goes up then these perceptions are usually laid bare pretty quickly.

@notorious_eagle @Darth Vader

 

[notorious_eagle]

@notorious_eagle @Darth Vader

I have no response to this. I have deepest respect for my dear friend @anathema , but when it comes to Indo-Pak, our friend is not the most rational person to have a discussion with. Feel free to review our last discussion on this topic here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/maje...ations-hd-footage.657645/page-4#post-12179168

 

[IceCold]

has Israel ever used their equipment against formidable foe, or someone other than Hamas and unarmed Palestinians. We know what happened to their spice bomb.

Even Israelis know what happened last time they went against a professional airforce.

 

[anathema]

I have no response to this. I have deepest respect for my dear friend @anathema , but when it comes to Indo-Pak, our friend is not the most rational person to have a discussion with. Feel free to review our last discussion on this topic here:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/maje...ations-hd-footage.657645/page-4#post-12179168

NE ,
You and I will always have disagreement on this topic. I have always maintained and noted down the shortcomings while highlighting the positive ones. I am yet to see any learnings from PAF - anyways, 3 cheers till the balloon goes up and we actually find it out.

 

[notorious_eagle]

NE ,
You and I will always have disagreement on this topic. I have always maintained and noted down the shortcomings while highlighting the positive ones. I am yet to see any learnings from PAF - anyways, 3 cheers till the balloon goes up and we actually find it out.

And Sir, there lies the flaw in your argument. Your hypothesis is based on the fact that there were no learnings and introspection within PAF as an organization. I can tell you with surety that Feb 26 and Feb 27 were analyzed intensely by PAF. Success and shortcomings were jotted down and highlighted by the strategists. Action plans were developed to address the shortcomings that we witnessed on Feb 26 and a lot of the work has already been done to address the shortcomings. PAF does not need to advertise that it is working on addressing its shortcomings.

 

[Aasimkhan]

You are incorrect in your assertion. India surely expected Pakistan to retaliate. Pakistani army wanted operations at Pak Army inc or Fauji Foundation to run smoothly. So what you saw - was actually public perception excercise from PAK armed forces. Strategically - that was the only objective they were seeking and they achieved it.

Infact taking a step back - India was prepared to loose planes when it cross the rubicon on feb26th - thats how important this was to India. Infact India's transparency is highly appreciable - it openly disclosed its shortcomings ( which will be plugged) and the unfortunate incident of fraticide. What exactly is Paks lessons ? You wont find much - myth is PAF and Pak army is invincible. This narrative suits us fine - coz when the ballons goes up then these perceptions are usually laid bare pretty quickly.

What a foolish analysis. As per your saying :
1. India attacked to prompt Pakistan to retaliate to keep Fauji Foundation alive.
2. Pakistan retaliated to keep fauji foundation alive and just for PR. That was only strategic purpose of Pakistan.
3. India attacked us :
a. To lose planes
b. to disclose its short comings (to be plugged later)
c. Pakistan learnt no lessons.
d. The myth PAF and Pak army are invincible suits india (which you will lay bare at some later point in time).
My dear novice fellow wars are started and fought for victory. If you are trying to say the BLOODY NOSE you received in front of the whole world, shattering the myth of India being SUPA POWA was on purpose then I can only laugh at the planners of your war system.
And by the way when you will be plugging old holes we will be making new holes in your body because war is not one sided. You think you will win the war by plugging old holes ? Do you know there is no trophy for runner up in war? you want to be runner up by being reactive ?

 

[nomi007]

Actually IAF wants these radios for listening FM-99.
because ABHI jet's communication system was working well also others

 

[anathema]

And Sir, there lies the flaw in your argument. Your hypothesis is based on the fact that there were no learnings and introspection within PAF as an organization. I can tell you with surety that Feb 26 and Feb 27 were analyzed intensely by PAF. Success and shortcomings were jotted down and highlighted by the strategists. Action plans were developed to address the shortcomings that we witnessed on Feb 26 and a lot of the work has already been done to address the shortcomings. PAF does not need to advertise that it is working on addressing its shortcomings.

Apologies for not responding - not able to dedicate time due to personal situation
NE
What were the leanings ? If independent media and defence enthusiasts like you are not aware of them - how do you expect to ask PAF/PAK armed forces tough questions ? Or you just lap it up whatever is dished out to you. If you look at IAF - entire community knows what went right , what went wrong and the improvement areas.

What a foolish analysis. As per your saying :
1. India attacked to prompt Pakistan to retaliate to keep Fauji Foundation alive.
2. Pakistan retaliated to keep fauji foundation alive and just for PR. That was only strategic purpose of Pakistan.
3. India attacked us :
a. To lose planes
b. to disclose its short comings (to be plugged later)
c. Pakistan learnt no lessons.
d. The myth PAF and Pak army are invincible suits india (which you will lay bare at some later point in time).
My dear novice fellow wars are started and fought for victory. If you are trying to say the BLOODY NOSE you received in front of the whole world, shattering the myth of India being SUPA POWA was on purpose then I can only laugh at the planners of your war system.
And by the way when you will be plugging old holes we will be making new holes in your body because war is not one sided. You think you will win the war by plugging old holes ? Do you know there is no trophy for runner up in war? you want to be runner up by being reactive ?

You got it all wrong ! Let me state again.

1. India attacked to prompt Pakistan to retaliate to keep Fauji Foundation alive.

India attacked to retaliate for pulwama - it called the nuclear bluff and established a space for conventional confortation. Strategically - that was the outcome for us.
Pakistan retaliated - to placate its domestic audience. It wanted to establish status quo in front of domestic audience. Militarily there was no outcome. So - tactically it achieved its outcome. Strategically - there was no outcome and neither was it planned to have one.
Why does it need to do ? Simple - to ensure faith of people in PAK armed forces so that they can continue its business interests unhindered.
Any question on PAK and its PAK foundation invites ban or the thread gets deleted - we had a thread 1 day back where some pakistani brought this point and the entire thread was deleted. Thats the level of public perception thats being controlled.

India attacked us :
a. To lose planes
b. to disclose its short comings (to be plugged later)
c. Pakistan learnt no lessons.

India was prepared to loose planes on 26th. It does not matter - strategically the outcome should be achieved. Shortcomings are diclosed due to the transparency that the entire institution is built on. Our media is nasty and does not spare anyone (as should be case)
Till date i have not seen any articles on what are the lessons for Pakistan. Heck even USAF had lessons

Rest of your writing is rant - no point in replying.