Israel hopes Congress will lift F-22 ban.

[Mig-29]

The Israel Air Force will review the possibility of purchasing the advanced American F-22 fifth-generation stealth fighter jet if a congressional ban is lifted, enabling it to be sold abroad, defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday. Referring to recent reports in the US that Congress had asked the Air Force to submit a report on the possibility of exporting the jet to Japan, Israel and other allies, a senior defense official said if this happened, "we will have to consider the option." "This is an advanced fighter jet of superior capabilities," the Defense Ministry official said. "It will depend, though, on the price, availability and time frame." Congress's interest in continuing funding for the F-22 runs counter to US Defense Secretary Robert Gates' decision to stop production of the aircrafts. Israel is already in advanced talks with the Pentagon regarding the possible sale of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) - also known as the F-35 - to Israel. Both planes are manufactured by Lockheed Martin, but Israeli defense officials said the F-22 was capable of flying at higher altitudes and could carry more weapons internally. "A lot will depend on the outcome of the ongoing talks regarding the JSF," the defense official said. "If the export ban on the F-22 is lifted, things may change." The IAF is also in negotiations with Boeing to purchase at least six additional Apache Longbow attack helicopters in an effort to bolster the air support the IAF is able to provide ground forces. The negotiations are ongoing and sources close to the talks said they would likely be completed by the end of the year. The IAF has yet to decide exactly how many aircraft it would purchase and was waiting to receive a final price offer from Boeing. The IAF is also considering upgrading several of its old "A" model Apache helicopters to the "D" model Longbow version with the above-rotor advanced radar system, which enables the helicopter to share targeting data with other Longbows. According to foreign reports, Israel has 37 "A" model Apaches and 11 Longbows. Three Apache helicopters - including one Longbow version - were lost during the Second Lebanon War. In one case, two Apaches collided in midair. In the other, the Longbow crashed due to a malfunction in the rotor. During Operation Cast Lead, due to the limited scope of the operation, the IAF was able to allocate a squadron of attack helicopters that worked in conjunction with infantry brigades operating on the ground. This organic system, a senior IAF officer said, would not be workable in a larger conflict due to the IAF's limited number of aircraft. "We do not have enough [aircraft] and need more," the officer said. "We operate with what we have and there are gaps; there is always room to improve."

 

[BSF]

I really wish they had allowed F 22 to enter the MCRA ...though too costly ... but still would have been nice to compare it with other aircrafts.Esp Mig 35.

 

[Mig-29]

I don't think US would like to part with that kind of technology and even then the planes would be highly costly , US considered sales of these aircraft to japan at $290 million a piece.

 

[Mig-29]

July 12, 2009: Congressional hearings over building more F-22s has led to the release of data about how much it costs, per flight hour, to maintain the aircraft. It's $44,000 per flight hour, compared to $30,000 per hour for the older F-15 that the F-22 is replacing. The F-22 per-hour cost is nearly twice what it is for the F-16. While it requires 19 man hours of maintenance for each F-16 flight hour, the F-22 requires 34 hours. The manufacturer originally said it would be less than ten hours. Most of this additional F-22 expense (and man hours) is for special materials and labor needed to keep the aircraft invisible to radar.

The main problem is the radar absorbent material used on the aircraft. The B-2 had a similar problem, which was eventually brought under control. But even then, the B-2 cost more than twice as much to operate than the half century old B-52. The B-2 and F-22 use different types of radar absorbent materials, so many of the B-2 solutions will not work for the F-22.

Some of the F-22 electronics are still not as reliable as the air force would like. The F-35 uses a different approach to defeating radar signals, and the manufacturer insists that F-35 maintenance costs will be closer to that for the F-15, than for the F-22. But Lockheed Martin has been saying, for years, that its F-22 would be cheaper to maintain than existing aircraft. The air force never challenged this, at least not in public. Instead, the air force tried to keep the high operating costs a secret.

In addition, the F-22 costs more than three times as much as the aircraft it was to replace. The air force wants to build more than 187, and has allies in Congress who want the jobs (and votes) continued production will generate. But the Department of Defense is reluctant to spend that kind of money, especially when there so many other programs seeking funds (like electronic warfare aircraft, UAVs and upgrades for F-15s and F-16s). Thus, earlier this year, the Department of Defense decided to terminate F-22 production at 187 aircraft. This resulted in each aircraft costing (including development and production spending), $332 million. Just the production costs of the last F-22s built was $153.2 million. Added to the cost of the last few aircraft was a $147 million fee the Department of Defense agreed to pay if the production line was shut down. This goes to pay for shutting down facilities and terminating contracts with hundreds of supplies.

The F-22 is a superb aircraft, probably the most capable fighter in the world. But the development and manufacturing costs kept rising until it became too expensive for the media, voters and politicians. The air force was able to build it, but they couldn't sell it to the people who paid the bills.

A decade ago, the F-22 was a $62 billion program, of which development accounted for $18.9 billion (this was a spending cap imposed by Congress). A decade before that, the air force was planning to buy 750 F-22s. Costs kept going up for two decades, and Congress refused to provide more money. So, for $62 billion, the air force ended up getting fewer aircraft.

The air force ran into a similar problem with the B-2 bomber, which became so expensive they were only allowed to build 21, and these cost $2.1 billion each. . About half of that was development expense. Actual construction costs for each of those aircraft was about $933 million each. Still pretty high, mainly because a lot of special machinery and factories had to be built to manufacture the many custom components.

The air force likes to point out that if the original (1986) plan had been followed, each B-2 would have cost $438 million each. But then the entire program would have cost $58.2 billion, versus $44.3 billion for the 21 plane program (which included $10 billion more R&D expense).

New technology gives a weapon, especially an aircraft, an edge in combat. But since World War II, most military technology has been developed in peacetime conditions. This means it is more than twice as expensive, as there is no wartime urgency to overcome bureaucratic inertia (and emphasis on covering your ***, which is very time consuming and expensive) and hesitation (because you don't have a war going on to settle disputes over what will work best). Developing this new technology takes longer in peacetime, which also raises the cost, and fewer units of a new weapon are produced (driving up the amount of development cost each weapon will have to carry.) If several hundred B-2s were produced under wartime conditions, each aircraft would have probably cost $200 million, or less. In other words, a tenth of what it actually cost. Same deal with the mythical $35 million F-22, or any other high tech weapon.

Other nations have adapted more effectively to peacetime development conditions. But the United States has the largest amount of peacetime military research and development, and this has created a unique military/industry/media/political atmosphere that drives costs up to the point where voters, politicians and the media will no longer support them.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20090712.aspx

 

[Thomas]

very few countries can afford the sale price and upkeep of the F-22. Not sure even Israel could no matter how much they want them.