Israel and Pakistan Building 2nd Strike Capability With AIP Submarines

[A2Z]

2nd strike capability is a must for Pakistan, sooner we attain better it will be. If Pakistan is able to use Babur LACM from its submarines it would be a great step and the the country would become safer than before.
One more thing, apart from the absence of AIP what are the other differences between S-20 and Yuan class?

 

[RiazHaq]

Many have wondered for years about the exact capabilities of the submarines Germany exports to Israel. Now, experts in Germany and Israel have confirmed that nuclear-tipped missiles have been deployed on the vessels. And the German government has long known about it. By SPIEGEL

--------

..former top German officials have admitted to the nuclear dimension for the first time. "I assumed from the very beginning that the submarines were supposed to be nuclear-capable," says Hans Rühle, the head of the planning staff at the German Defense Ministry in the late 1980s. Lothar Rühl, a former state secretary in the Defense Ministry, says that he never doubted that "Israel stationed nuclear weapons on the ships." And Wolfgang Ruppelt, the director of arms procurement at the Defense Ministry during the key phase, admits that it was immediately clear to him that the Israelis wanted the ships "as carriers for weapons of the sort that a small country like Israel cannot station on land." Top German officials speaking under the protection of anonymity were even more forthcoming. "From the beginning, the boats were primarily used for the purposes of nuclear capability," says one ministry official with knowledge of the matter.

Insiders say that the Israeli defense technology company Rafael built the missiles for the nuclear weapons option. Apparently it involves a further development of cruise missiles of the Popeye Turbo SLCM type, which are supposed to have a range of around 1,500 kilometers (940 miles) and which could reach Iran with a warhead weighing up to 200 kilograms (440 pounds). The nuclear payload comes from the Negev Desert, where Israel has operated a reactor and an underground plutonium separation plant in Dimona since the 1960s. The question of how developed the Israeli cruise missiles are is a matter of debate. Their development is a complex project, and the missiles' only public manifestation was a single test that the Israelis conducted off the coast of Sri Lanka.

The submarines are the military response to the threat in a region "where there is no mercy for the weak," Defense Minister Ehud Barak says. They are an insurance policy against the Israelis' fundamental fear that "the Arabs could slaughter us tomorrow," as David Ben-Gurion, the founder of the State of Israel, once said. "We shall never again be led as lambs to the slaughter," was the lesson Ben-Gurion and others drew from Auschwitz.

Armed with nuclear weapons, the submarines are a signal to any enemy that the Jewish state itself would not be totally defenseless in the event of a nuclear attack, but could strike back with the ultimate weapon of retaliation. The submarines are "a way of guaranteeing that the enemy will not be tempted to strike pre-emptively with non-conventional weapons and get away scot-free," as Israeli Admiral Avraham Botzer puts it.

Israel Deploys Nuclear Weapons on German-Built Submarines - SPIEGEL ONLINE

 

[RiazHaq]

New Delhi, Aug 20: The recent disaster in the Indian submarine INS Sindhurakshak that perhaps killed all 18 Navy personnel on-board has raised a pertinent question on the Indian Navy's submarine conditions as well as its underwater combat edge. According to a TOI report, currently, India can only deploy 7-8 "aging conventional" submarines against enemy forces. The stark reality is that the Indian Navy is left with only 13 aging diesel-electric submarines - 11 of them over 20 years old. Out of the 13 submarines - 9 Kilo-class of Russian origin and 4 HDW of German-origin - are undergoing reparation to 'extend' their operational lives. The only "face saver" of the Navy seems to be the INS Chakra, the only nuclear-powered submarine, taken on a 10-year lease from Russia last year. But due to international treaties, it is not armed with nuclear-tipped missiles. With its 300-km range Klub-S land-attack cruise missiles, other missiles and advanced torpedoes, the INS Chakra can serve as a deadly hunter-killer' of enemy submarines and warships. Moreover, India has been indecisive to fit Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) in the last two of the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed for over Rs 23,000 crore at Mazagon Docks under "Project-75". The first Scorpene will be delivered only by November 2016. On August 12, the Indian Navy launched its aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, placing India in the fifth rank, after US, Russia, Britain and France, who have the ability to design and build aircraft carriers of 40,000 tonnes and above. With a capacity to deploy over 30 aircraft and helicopters, it is considered to be the biggest aircraft carrier in India. Pakistan Navy Power: Whereas the neighbouring country Pakistan, which is continuously violating ceasefire bilateral agreement along the Line of Control (LoC) since last month, is far more more advanced and well prepared in terms of submarines. Presently, Pakistan is well equipped with five "new conventional" submarines and is considering to get six more 'advanced' vessels from its all-weather friend China. China already flexes its muscles with 47 diesel-electric submarines and eight nuclear-powered submarines. Incidentally, the Pakistan Navy is the first force in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) to have submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) in the shape of three French Agosta-90B vessels. The difference: The conventional submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries in contrast with the AIP equipped submarines that can stay submerged for much longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities. OneIndia News

Read more at: India far behind Pakistans powerful Submarines | Report - Oneindia

 

[aqdus]

Bahi g bachy apni shalwar may rah kay zaroor bolain, par yoon faltoo k username rakh kay bat nahi trolling he ho skti hai.

well you know their psyche and this is what they are best at Trolling

 

[salwararmy]

Why test in first place? Need? Motive? Intention? Answer me this first

And jab 2 bary moot rahy ho to beech may a kay muh nahi dhoty.

Maloom hai tum log Haath nahin dhote....

India tried to...but failed miserably....remember Brass Tacks.....Cricket Diplomacy.......

We know who is trying for the past 60 years & eat Dirt every time.....So pathetic...

 

[I.R.A]

Maloom hai tum log Haath nahin dhote....

Abay dhakan 5 time wazoo karty hain, hath he nahi muh bhi dohty hain hum.

 

[salwararmy]

Abay dhakan 5 time wazoo karty hain, hath he nahi muh bhi dohty hain hum.

hehe

 

[tarrar]

PN should try to get all the best military hardware.

 

[RiazHaq]

#China vows to deepen maritime security ties with #Pakistan: report China vows to deepen maritime security ties with Pakistan: report - The Express Tribune …

BEIJING: China on Thursday vowed to deepen maritime security, anti-terrorism, security and military cooperation with Pakistan to further strengthen their ‘all-weather’ strategic ties.

The “pledge” was made by Chinese Central Military Commission Vice Chairperson General Fan Changlong during his meeting with Pakistan Navy Chief Muhammad Zakaullah in Beijing.

Fan said China hopes to enhance coordination and cooperation with Pakistan on regional security affairs.

“China is willing to deepen cooperation with Pakistan in anti-terrorism, maritime security and military technology,” Fan said.

China together with Pakistan will push for the construction of the Pakistan-China Economic Corridor within the construct of China’s “Belt and Road” initiatives.

Zakaullah said that Pakistan will work with China to deepen logical cooperation between the two armed forces.

Previously, the Pakistan naval chief said that Pakistan Navy and PLA Navy are strengthening their existing maritime cooperation, keeping in mind the changing regional international scenarios.

Yesterday (Wednesday) Zakaullah met with Commander of the PLA (Navy) Admiral Wu Shengli and said that the navies of Pakistan and China have been cooperating for decades.

He said that military cooperation between the two countries is extensive and it covers equipment, personnel exchanges and joint exercises.

Zakaullah said Pakistan strongly supports PLA Navy’s enhanced role in the

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan already has 2nd strike capabilities. The submarines will give it a 2nd strike enhanced capability or 3rd strike capability

 

[Asian.Century]

Haq's Musings: Israel and Pakistan Bolster Second Strike Capability With AIP Subs

Israel does not trust Iran just as Pakistan does not trust India. While Israel is preparing for eventual nuclear-armed Iran in the future, Pakistan is threatened by India's growing nuclear triad and atomic arsenal today. So what are Israel and Pakistan doing to deter potential nuclear attacks by their regional rivals? They are both building sea-based nuclear second strike capability with diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP).


Israel's Submarine Fleet:

Israel has just taken delivery of the 5th of 6 Dolphin II class AIP-equipped submarines built by Germany. More than 225 feet long, the diesel-electric Dolphin II class is part attack submarine, part nuclear strike ship and part commando taxi. Each sub has 10 tubes. Four of these tubes are larger 26-inch tubes—the size is rare for a Western-built submarine—capable of launching small commando teams or firing larger nuclear-capable cruise missiles. The remaining six tubes measure at 21 inches, according toReal Clear Defense.




Several German defense ministry officials interviewed by German news magazine Der Spiegel believe that Israel intends for these submarines to carry nuclear weapons. The missiles can also be launched “using a previously secret hydraulic ejection system,” the magazine reported.

Diesel-Electric AIP Vs Nuclear-Powered Subs:

A key requirement for submarines is to be stealthy—and the Dolphin II is indeed very quiet. The trick is in the submarine’s air-independent propulsion fuel cells, which provide power under the surface as the diesel engines—used for running on the surface—rest and recharge. This system is quieter than the nuclear-powered engines on American and Russian submarines, which must constantly circulate engine coolant. Nuclear submarines are virtually unlimited in terms of range, and are better used for deep-water operations. But Israel has no need for nuclear-powered subs when quiet diesel subs can do the same job, according to Real Clear Defense.


Pakistan's AIP Submarine Fleet:

The details of Pakistan's planned submarine fleet are not clear yet. However, Pakistan too is acquiring a fleet of AIP-equipped diesel-electric submarines.

Pakistan Navy operates a fleet of five diesel-electric submarines and three MG110 miniature submarines (SSI). The nucleus of the fleet includes two Agosta-70 and three modern Agosta-90B submarines. Pakistan's third Agosta-90B, the S 139 Hamza, was constructed indigenously and features the DCNS MESMA (Module d'EnergieSous-Marin Autonome) air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. Pakistan retrofitted the two earlier Agosta-90B vessels with the MESMA AIP propulsion system when they underwent overhaul in 2011, according to Nuclear Threat Initiative.

Pakistan is expanding and modernizing its underwater fleet with 8 additional AIP-equipped submarines ordered from China. Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials. If the deal transpires, it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defense and Strategic Studies told Defense News that AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Balance of Terror as Deterrence:

Let's hope that nuclear deterrence works and the world never again sees the use of the growing stockpile of nukes in South Asia, the Middle East or anywhere else. Here's the full video of a recent interview with Pakistan's General Khalid Kidawi on Pakistan 2nd strike capability:

I think senior American analyst and South Asia watcher Stephen Cohen summed up the current situation in South Asia when he said: "The alphabet agencies—ISI, RAW, and so forth—are often the chosen instrument of state policy when there is a conventional (and now a nuclear) balance of power, and the diplomatic route seems barren."

I see little likelihood of full-scale war between India and Pakistan. The best way for the two nuclear armed neighbors to proceed is sustained diplomatic engagement to resolve all outstanding issues including Kashmir. If the diplomatic rote remains barren, there will be continuation of covert and proxy wars in the region.

Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Pakistan's Second Strike Capability

Pakistan's Shaheen 3 Can Hit Deep Inside India and Israel

Pakistan Building Nuclear Submarine?

India's Israel Envy

Pakistan Space Program

Revolution in Military Affairs

Pakistan Defense Production Goes High-Tech

Drones Outrage and Inspire Pakistanis

RMA Status in Pakistan

Cyber Wars in South Asia

Pakistan's Biggest Ever Arms Bazar

Genomics and Biotech Advances in Pakistan

India's Israel Envy: What if Modi Attacks Pakistan

Eating Grass: Pakistan's Nuclear Program

Kerry Challenges Modi With Hard Evidence

Haq's Musings: Israel and Pakistan Bolster Second Strike Capability With AIP Subs

Great...fabulous work Riaz Haq, you should do more Defence, Military and Strategic related analysis...you are doing a tremendous job...in Pakistan economic and politics affairs.

Keep up the great work.

What Pakistan actually wants 1-2 of these subs these types with its own, made in Pakistan Weapon and Ballistic Missile system : China also reportedly has four Type-094 ballistic missile submarines carrying JL-1 or JL-2 nuclear missiles.

Any chance of Pakistan coming into this joint venture?:

“China is also pursuing joint-design and production of four to six Russian advanced diesel-electric attack submarines containing Russia’s latest submarine sonar, propulsion, and quieting technology,” the RT reporter today said.

 

[The SC]

Haq's Musings: Israel and Pakistan Bolster Second Strike Capability With AIP Subs

Israel does not trust Iran just as Pakistan does not trust India. While Israel is preparing for eventual nuclear-armed Iran in the future, Pakistan is threatened by India's growing nuclear triad and atomic arsenal today. So what are Israel and Pakistan doing to deter potential nuclear attacks by their regional rivals? They are both building sea-based nuclear second strike capability with diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP).


Israel's Submarine Fleet:

Israel has just taken delivery of the 5th of 6 Dolphin II class AIP-equipped submarines built by Germany. More than 225 feet long, the diesel-electric Dolphin II class is part attack submarine, part nuclear strike ship and part commando taxi. Each sub has 10 tubes. Four of these tubes are larger 26-inch tubes—the size is rare for a Western-built submarine—capable of launching small commando teams or firing larger nuclear-capable cruise missiles. The remaining six tubes measure at 21 inches, according toReal Clear Defense.




Several German defense ministry officials interviewed by German news magazine Der Spiegel believe that Israel intends for these submarines to carry nuclear weapons. The missiles can also be launched “using a previously secret hydraulic ejection system,” the magazine reported.

Diesel-Electric AIP Vs Nuclear-Powered Subs:

A key requirement for submarines is to be stealthy—and the Dolphin II is indeed very quiet. The trick is in the submarine’s air-independent propulsion fuel cells, which provide power under the surface as the diesel engines—used for running on the surface—rest and recharge. This system is quieter than the nuclear-powered engines on American and Russian submarines, which must constantly circulate engine coolant. Nuclear submarines are virtually unlimited in terms of range, and are better used for deep-water operations. But Israel has no need for nuclear-powered subs when quiet diesel subs can do the same job, according to Real Clear Defense.


Pakistan's AIP Submarine Fleet:

The details of Pakistan's planned submarine fleet are not clear yet. However, Pakistan too is acquiring a fleet of AIP-equipped diesel-electric submarines.

Pakistan Navy operates a fleet of five diesel-electric submarines and three MG110 miniature submarines (SSI). The nucleus of the fleet includes two Agosta-70 and three modern Agosta-90B submarines. Pakistan's third Agosta-90B, the S 139 Hamza, was constructed indigenously and features the DCNS MESMA (Module d'EnergieSous-Marin Autonome) air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. Pakistan retrofitted the two earlier Agosta-90B vessels with the MESMA AIP propulsion system when they underwent overhaul in 2011, according to Nuclear Threat Initiative.

Pakistan is expanding and modernizing its underwater fleet with 8 additional AIP-equipped submarines ordered from China. Whether the Chinese submarines are the S-20 export derivative of the Type-039A/Type-041 Yuan-class submarine, or a bespoke design, is unclear. But the Yuan has also been mentioned, and according to government officials. If the deal transpires, it will be the largest ever Sino-Pakistani deal. He believes the submarines will each cost $ 250 million to $325 million.

Mansoor Ahmed of Quaid-e-Azam University's Department of Defense and Strategic Studies told Defense News that AIP-equipped conventional submarines "provide reliable second strike platforms, [and] an assured capability resides with [nuclear-powered attack and nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines], which are technically very complex and challenging to construct and operate compared to SSKs, and also very capital intensive."

Balance of Terror as Deterrence:

Let's hope that nuclear deterrence works and the world never again sees the use of the growing stockpile of nukes in South Asia, the Middle East or anywhere else. Here's the full video of a recent interview with Pakistan's General Khalid Kidawi on Pakistan 2nd strike capability:

I think senior American analyst and South Asia watcher Stephen Cohen summed up the current situation in South Asia when he said: "The alphabet agencies—ISI, RAW, and so forth—are often the chosen instrument of state policy when there is a conventional (and now a nuclear) balance of power, and the diplomatic route seems barren."

I see little likelihood of full-scale war between India and Pakistan. The best way for the two nuclear armed neighbors to proceed is sustained diplomatic engagement to resolve all outstanding issues including Kashmir. If the diplomatic rote remains barren, there will be continuation of covert and proxy wars in the region.

Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Pakistan's Second Strike Capability

Pakistan's Shaheen 3 Can Hit Deep Inside India and Israel

Pakistan Building Nuclear Submarine?

India's Israel Envy

Pakistan Space Program

Revolution in Military Affairs

Pakistan Defense Production Goes High-Tech

Drones Outrage and Inspire Pakistanis

RMA Status in Pakistan

Cyber Wars in South Asia

Pakistan's Biggest Ever Arms Bazar

Genomics and Biotech Advances in Pakistan

India's Israel Envy: What if Modi Attacks Pakistan

Eating Grass: Pakistan's Nuclear Program

Kerry Challenges Modi With Hard Evidence

Haq's Musings: Israel and Pakistan Bolster Second Strike Capability With AIP Subs

Flawed comparative analysis for the simple reasons that Iran does not possess nuclear weapons and does not share any borders with Usrael, on land or in sea.
While for Pakistan this was a must, due to India's Nuclear submarines and nuclear weapons along the conventional threats on the borders. The same can not be said about Usrael using Iran as a fake alibi, it is the same story with its nuclear arsenal, just that the Alibi was the Arabs, anyhow anyone can see that Usrael's alibi is always about some Muslim country .
So the comparison between Usrael and Pakistan is diametrically opposed...

 

[Paksanity]

And what Pakistan has been teaching their kids in schools? Akhand Bharat is history. No Indian dreams of hoisting tricolor on Minar-e-Pakistan but kids in Pakistan are sold the dreams of ghazwa-e-hind and hoisting pakistani flag on lal qila.

Pakistan would have died of heart attack if her threats were as large as India's and her defence budget was as low as India's.

Please refer me the text books you just mentioned. No lame excuses, just reference please. Simple. And straight.

2nd strike capability is a must for Pakistan, sooner we attain better it will be. If Pakistan is able to use Babur LACM from its submarines it would be a great step and the the country would become safer than before.
One more thing, apart from the absence of AIP what are the other differences between S-20 and Yuan class?

We already have the second strike capability. Two of its components actually, ground and air. Third one is partial and we intend to complete it. The third one is most assured with nuclear launch submarines, most assured second strike capability. As far a person who thinks it is waste for Pakistan to attain such capability, just ignore him/ her. They don't understand ABC of how nuclear balance is achieved and sustained. They consider themselves wiser than the entire western world, Russia, China and all other policy experts who develope and agree on the tenets of nuclear deterrence. Not worth it man. Those who matter in India know what can happen and they don't sleep easy.

 

[Asian.Century]

We already have the second strike capability. Two of its components actually, ground and air. Third one is partial and we intend to complete it. The third one is most assured with nuclear launch submarines, most assured second strike capability.

That is not how 2nd Strike Capability work. The categorisation of air, land, as first and second is wrong, while you put sea as third...which ones first actually ? It does not work like that. This is not the concept of 2nd Strike Capability.

2nd Strike Capability means, if you do a first strike and enemy services and hits back with nukes to knock u out, or the enemy does a first strike on you, in order to completely destroy your bases, air assets, nuclear assets, etc, a 2nd second strike capability allows you to hit back from sea and submarines.

 

[Paksanity]

That is not how 2nd Strike Capability work. The categorisation of air, land, as first and second is wrong, while you put sea as third...which ones first actually ? It does not work like that. This is not the concept of 2nd Strike Capability.

2nd Strike Capability means, if you do a first strike and enemy services and hits back with nukes to knock u out, or the enemy does a first strike on you, in order to completely destroy your bases, air assets, nuclear assets, etc, a 2nd second strike capability allows you to hit back from sea and submarines.

Did my post gave an impression as army, air force and navy as first, second and third strike capability? Sorry if it did. To put it simply here is what second strike capability is

"ability to launch nuclear strike after your enemy has launched nuclear strikes on you"

Here is how it works. If you are a non nuclear state, nuclear state will launch strike on your cities, armed forces, industry with a view to either destroy war fighting capability, crush morale and spirit to fight or do both. When you are a nuclear state he doesn't have this luxury. First nuclear strike is on your nuclear capability otherwise you will remain capable to retaliate with nuclear arms. So you have to develop means to secure your nuclear potential so that it is not destroyed by first nuclear strike of your enemy. Giving you the chance to perform second nuclear strike' hence the name. When a country develops second strike capability it achieves a balance in nuclear threat a state known as 'MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction '. Which means destruction of both parties is assured. Strange it may seem but MAD status achieved through second strike capability assures peace and deters aggression and conflict. That is how US and USSR stayed away from open conflict.

Second Strike capability is a condition that either exists or doesn't. It should not be confused with NFU or First use policies which are statements of intents (not the existing state of capability). I hope I made it easy enough to understand.