Israel and a Solution to Its Conflict

[ephone]

No need to drag China into this matter. China is NOT in this matter.

No matter what the historical reasons for this Jews v.s. Muslims problems now, the fact is that Israel will not go anywhere. A two state solution is the only way out.

Hamas' way to erase Israel from earth can not be a solution at all.

A mutual recognition is the start point for peace negotiation.

If one side is always stubborn to refuse to recognize the other side, there will be no peace at all.

My friend ephone you should put yourself in shoes of others to understand their point of view. Let suppose Jews would have consider China as holy or promised land of God based on their holy scriptures and would have made illegal Jewish settlement there and would have created a country for jews living in different countries with the help of their big daddy US and Britain then you as a Chinese would recognise their existence?

Second if Hamas was fighting for the rights of Chinese peoples would you call it a terrorist organization? Hamas is a terrorist for oppressor and its freedom fighter for those who are being oppressed. Hamas did not came into existence from no where. In a very real sense, Israel created Hamas by its cruel and unjust treatment of Palestinians. America and other western powers such as Britain must bear some of the responsibility too. None of them was prepared to square up to Israel when it could have made a difference

 

[ephone]

Cancers dont get cured by using Paracetamol my dear Bu Zolfiqar... There is such a thing as radical surgery...

Its actually a humilitation of the whole of Islamic world that we allow an entity such as Israel to exist...

what a bunch of cowards and pussies have Muslims become...

If we only spit on Israel, they could all drown... tsk tsk

To an extremist like you, the only thing for you is disappointment.

 

[MiloMayor]

Second if Hamas was fighting for the rights of Chinese peoples would you call it a terrorist organization? Hamas is a terrorist for oppressor and its freedom fighter for those who are being oppressed. Hamas did not came into existence from no where. In a very real sense, Israel created Hamas by its cruel and unjust treatment of Palestinians.

I cant understand this logic. For Pakistani members LTTE is a terrorist organization, which was created for the same reason as said above. A terrorist organization is a Terrorist organization irrespective of their goal or the reason it was founded. Hamas wants to erase Israel and is not wiling to recognize Israel, where as LTTE doesn't have that goal and it recognized Srilanka.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

No need to drag China into this matter. China is NOT in this matter.

China is not into this matter. It was just one example to explain you why they don't recognise the existence of Israel

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I cant understand this logic. For Pakistani members LTTE is a terrorist organization, which was created for the same reason as said above. A terrorist organization is a Terrorist organization irrespective of their goal or the reason it was founded. Hamas wants to erase Israel and is not wiling to recognize Israel, where as LTTE doesn't have that goal and it recognized Srilanka.

you need to go back and read my previous reply to nirreich and then come back to me. Israel is also guilty of doing same crimes which they attribute to Hamas. Infact they killed more innocent peoples than Hamas then why i should not call it terrorist state?

Hamas is also 'fighting' with an army and a nation that violates the Geneva Convention in more ways than one. Certainly, the Israeli army does not fire weapons while surrounded by civilians. It fires weapons at civilians. The IDF does not use suicide bombers. It uses real bombs because it has a real army

 

[MiloMayor]

you need to go back and read my previous reply to nirreich and then come back to me. Israel is also guilty of doing same crimes which they attribute to Hamas. Infact they killed more innocent peoples than Hamas then why i should not call it terrorist state?

Hamas is also 'fighting' with an army and a nation that violates the Geneva Convention in more ways than one. Certainly, the Israeli army does not fire weapons while surrounded by civilians. It fires weapons at civilians. The IDF does not use suicide bombers. It uses real bombs because it has a real army

The Srilankan army has done more than that. Firing/killing/Looting/ civilians and RAPING women/children in front of their parents and raping the mother in front of their kids, looting from the dead bodies like cutting fingures to take the rings.. Sometimes I used to wonder whether Srilankan army was trained specifically for doing this, instead of fighting. The IDF doesnt do these barbaric things and acts professionally. Srilankan army's record of Ethnic cleansing had killed 80,000–100,000 Tamils . Srilanka also is not accecpting the Authentic war cirmes videos and the investigation related to that. The Srilankan armydoes not use suicide bombers.. It uses real bombs because it has a real army.So while supporting Srilankan Army why to appose IDF.Even most of the Bangladeshi members has this biased view.

Yes I have read your reply to "nirreich". The same had happened in Srilanka, Tamils driven away and Sinhala people were settled there, where Tamils have resided for centuries. Tamils rights taken from the country and are 2nd class citizens.

Just a sample video.

I clearly understand the sufferings of Palestine people and they deserve their own home land . Practically thinking Israel is going to be there and co-existing peacefully is the only chance. But when Pakistani/Bangladeshi members , without knowing the facts of Srilankan war and the war crimes of Sinhalese army , blabber for the sake of talking, it hurts as it hurts you when somebody make fun of Palestine struggle.

 

[ephone]

China is not into this matter. It was just one example to explain you why they don't recognise the existence of Israel

Does U.N. recognize Israel? Of course.

How many countries in the world indeed recognize Israel??? Israel maintains diplomatic relations with 161 countries.

You want Israel gone???

There is no need to talk tough. China won't support any actions that create threats against Israel's existence. I really pity those nuts who talk tough against Israel day in and day out. Has any part of your tough talk been realized??? Besides becoming laughing stocks of the world, such tough talk means nothing.

Check CCTV's program and Hunan TV's popular program related to Israel. Chinese are quite positive towards Jewish people.

Israel - Dream of the future

(starting at around 9:00 minute, News official from Israel)

You can check how Israel was introduced in China media and how audience showed him our warm welcome.

CCTV is China most important TV station.

Hunan TV's 天天向上 (day day up) is the top program within China.

 

[fallstuff]

 

[modern_newton]

Hamas wants to erase Israel and is not wiling to recognize Israel.

Hamas founded after Israel erased Palestinians peoples from their lands and occupied their lands by force. Do you think it was possible to set up a distinctively 'Jewish' homeland without damaging the rights of the people already resident there.

The Israeli government is also an extremist organization that is misusing religion to grab the lands of others by force. How can you justify constantly shelling a mass of people who have held virtually captive in a small area who have no national military or security force or a defense mechanism to safeguard its peoples. After the end of the Second World War and the exposure of the full horror of the Holocaust a sympathetic world forgot about justice for the Palestinians in its rush to do 'justice' to the survivors of the Nazi camps

 

[modern_newton]

I completely agree with your post

you say they want to destroy Israel and why is that? Why they want to destroy Israel when Israel and Jews are innocent peoples who never oppressed and destroy any Palestinians. Are they crazy ? Why Hamas don't destroy Nigerian lol. The creation of Israel in 1948 was a triumph for the Jews but an injustice to the Palestinians. The wars of 1948 and 1967 only made matters worse. Israel grabbed more land and control. Many more Palestinians were dispossessed of their land and fled to live as disgruntled refugees in neighboring Arab lands. They dreamed of regaining their land and property and they are fighting for it with all their limited resources.

The USA was wholly biased in favor of Israel, whom it armed, bankrolled and protected politically in the United Nations Security Council. Other western countries were little better. There was no one to speak up for the Palestinians except Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement but they became mired in corruption and less committed to fighting Israel. As Israel with American connivance or at best acquiescence, gradually stole more of the West Bank by establishing hundreds of illegal Jewish settlements and progressively encroached on Muslim areas of Jerusalem, Palestinians revolted. The first Intifada erupted. It was a campaign of civil disobedience and resistance and Hamas masterminded it. It was a great success exposing Israeli brutality to the world and convincing Israel that military occupation would not come cheaply. It drove Israel to the Oslo peace talks.

If the wider world had been fairer in its dealings with the Palestinians, much of what has built up since the 1967 war could have been avoided. It is unhelpful to condemn an organization as terrorist and evil on the one hand and on the other to continue to turn a blind eye to the misery and injustice which gave rise to it. Palestinians will strive for a return of the land stolen from them. They will demand their right to a homeland. They will expect the same dignity and opportunities demanded as a right by others. Hamas offers them the prospect of securing these things. Hamas won democratically contested elections in Gaza. The response of the world's leading democracies was crass and hypocritical. The people of Gaza were punished for their temerity. In face of that, why should anyone trust in democracy again? If they turn to the missile and the explosive belt, I would condemn them, but I would understand why they did it.

Read this to find out who killed more innocent peoples and these are the reports of your own human rights organization.
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities
If anyone wants Hamas to cease to operate, they need to start by changing the Israeli State's mind set and that of its apologists. Until the freedom fighters will give their lives for what they believe is just whether they cloak it in religion or anything else. At its root it is not a struggle by evil or for Islam but it is a struggle against oppression and injustice. Peace

 

[modern_newton]

Does U.N. recognize Israel? Of course.
How many countries in the world indeed recognize Israel??? Israel maintains diplomatic relations with 161 countries.
You want Israel gone???

We stand for what is right and just without caring about you or your world which revolve around USA. Read this with open eyes

The UN has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[nirreich]

you say they want to destroy Israel and why is that? Why they want to destroy Israel when Israel and Jews are innocent peoples who never oppressed and destroy any Palestinians. Are they crazy ? Why Hamas don't destroy Nigerian lol. The creation of Israel in 1948 was a triumph for the Jews but an injustice to the Palestinians. The wars of 1948 and 1967 only made matters worse. Israel grabbed more land and control. Many more Palestinians were dispossessed of their land and fled to live as disgruntled refugees in neighboring Arab lands. They dreamed of regaining their land and property and they are fighting for it with all their limited resources.

A Palestinian state could have been already exist since 1947 and the war of 1948 would not have happened if not for the Palestinian rejection of UN resolution 181 which suggested a partition of the country to two independent states. The Jews were ready to accept the partition while the Palestinian declared war and immediately began to attack the Jewish community in full intent to destroy it completely. Few months later Arab armed forces invaded to Israel. In light of the Palestinian poor judgement, their refusal for any compromise and their murderous attack against the Jewish community, during the war significant part of their society was destroyed and they created the refugee problem of their own people. The Palestinians did not learn anything and still refuse to accept Israel as a Jewish nation state. Similar thing happened again in 1967 - The Arab countries decided to launch another war against Israel in order to destroy it, and they were defeated.

It was not necessary for the refugees to suffer for more than 60 years since 1948 - they are the only permanent refugees in the world, in other conflicts all the refugees finally found a place to live in their host country. India and Pakistan absorbed millions of refugees during the conflict of 1947 and there are no refugee camps in these countries (of those people).

The USA was wholly biased in favor of Israel, whom it armed, bankrolled and protected politically in the United Nations Security Council. Other western countries were little better. There was no one to speak up for the Palestinians except Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement but they became mired in corruption and less committed to fighting Israel. As Israel with American connivance or at best acquiescence, gradually stole more of the West Bank by establishing hundreds of illegal Jewish settlements and progressively encroached on Muslim areas of Jerusalem, Palestinians revolted. The first Intifada erupted. It was a campaign of civil disobedience and resistance and Hamas masterminded it. It was a great success exposing Israeli brutality to the world and convincing Israel that military occupation would not come cheaply. It drove Israel to the Oslo peace talks.

As I said, Israel is still ready to accept a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank (around 90%) and to dismantle most of the settlements (Israel dismantled all its civilian settlements in Gaza in 2005) and in previous negotiations was ready to withdraw even from the Palestinian parts of Jerusalem.

If the wider world had been fairer in its dealings with the Palestinians, much of what has built up since the 1967 war could have been avoided. It is unhelpful to condemn an organization as terrorist and evil on the one hand and on the other to continue to turn a blind eye to the misery and injustice which gave rise to it. Palestinians will strive for a return of the land stolen from them. They will demand their right to a homeland. They will expect the same dignity and opportunities demanded as a right by others. Hamas offers them the prospect of securing these things. Hamas won democratically contested elections in Gaza. The response of the world's leading democracies was crass and hypocritical. The people of Gaza were punished for their temerity. In face of that, why should anyone trust in democracy again? If they turn to the missile and the explosive belt, I would condemn them, but I would understand why they did it.

As I said the return of the refugees means the destruction of Israel, and no one should expect us to commit suicide. If their Arab 'friends' would care about their situation, they could already have grant them with citizenship (like Jordan). Alternatively, following to a peace agreement, the refugees could return to the Palestinian state in the pre-1967 borders and have their self-determination.

Israel withdraw completely from Gaza and Hamas continue to attack its sovereign territory and holds an Israeli soldier as a hostage without letting anyone to check on his conditions. After Hamas won the 2006 elections Israel declared that it would be ready to negotiate with the new government if it recognises Israel, respects all the arrangements between Israel and PA, and stop using terror against Israeli civilians. Hamas rejected all this elementary conditions. the Palestinians can elect whom they like, but that does not mean Israel should negotiate with a barbaric terror organisation which does not recognise it and committed to its destruction.

Read this to find out who killed more innocent peoples and these are the reports of your own human rights organization.
B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities
If anyone wants Hamas to cease to operate, they need to start by changing the Israeli State's mind set and that of its apologists. Until the freedom fighters will give their lives for what they believe is just whether they cloak it in religion or anything else. At its root it is not a struggle by evil or for Islam but it is a struggle against oppression and injustice. Peace

I see you do not have a problem that Hamas intentionally murders innocent women and children, and you keep calling them 'freedom fighters' - one of these 'freedom fighters' (which is the scum of the earth) broke into a family home a few months ago, killed them all and when he heard a baby cry kills her too. Isn't it a bit hypercritical of you?

Using this kind of statistics in order to illustrate which side is the real 'war criminal' is totally distorted. Israel never had a policy of killing civilians, Hamas has. Palestinian civilians were killed because Hamas terrorists have no problem to use them as a human shield and hide among them in clear intention that they would be as many as possible civilian casualties (for example firing rockets on Israel from neighbourhoods). Later, people like yourself could use these statistics against Israel. Israeli soldiers who used their power to hurt innocent civilians and found guilty were punished severely; Hamas (and PLO) terrorists who murder Israeli civilians are being glorified and are use as admiration figures in Palestinian schools.

 

[nirreich]

Israel-PLO Recognition:
Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat


1. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization




2. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER:

September 9, 1993

His Excellency
Johan Jorgen Holst
Foreign Minister of Norway

Dear Minister Holst,

I would like top confirm to you that, upon the signing of the Declaration of Principles, the PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism, contributing to peace and stability and participating actively in shaping reconstruction, economic develoment and cooperation.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization




3. LETTER FROM PRIME MINISTER RABIN TO YASSER ARAFAT:

September 9, 1993

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestinian Liberation Organization

Mr. Chairman,

In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel


Israel-PLO Recognition - Exchange of Letters betwe

Arafat was ready to recognise Israel but not as the Jewish nation state: his insistence on the 'right of return' eventually ended the negotiation with him in 2000. As far as his commitment to avoid terror, he has been violating this commitment since his first day as the chairman of the PA.

 

[nirreich]

Hamas founded after Israel erased Palestinians peoples from their lands and occupied their lands by force. Do you think it was possible to set up a distinctively 'Jewish' homeland without damaging the rights of the people already resident there.

The Israeli government is also an extremist organization that is misusing religion to grab the lands of others by force. How can you justify constantly shelling a mass of people who have held virtually captive in a small area who have no national military or security force or a defense mechanism to safeguard its peoples. After the end of the Second World War and the exposure of the full horror of the Holocaust a sympathetic world forgot about justice for the Palestinians in its rush to do 'justice' to the survivors of the Nazi camps

Lets make a deal: convince Hamas to stop all terror attacks against Israel and arming itself with rockets and explosives, recognise Israel and agree to live with it peacefully and I guarantee that Israel would stop all its military activities against Hamas.

The Palestinians living in Israel as its citizens enjoy equal rights to to the Jews and have more political freedoms than the Pakistani people and most of the people in Arab countries.

The Palestinians cannot have justice like no other nation in the world received justice, they were all have been compromised one way or another, and Jews more than any other nation. The Palestinians should have long ago accept reality and settle for their own state living side by side with a Jewish state. Continue playing the victim and not taking responsibility for their mistakes and not holding their fate in their own hands in a constructive manner would bring them nowhere and only prolong their suffering. If they agreed in 1947 for the UN resolution 181 they could have their own state on 45% of the territory, If they agreed to a state after 1967 war they could have a state on 26% of the territory, now they would receive less and with more restrictions. If they miss this opportunity too they are gambling on their fate as a nation and could end up with nothing.

 

[nirreich]

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