Islamic Military Alliance should have liberation of al-Quds on top of agenda: JI Chief

[Awan68]

Israel is the only example that you can mention. In the modern era Arabs have not been fighting against non-Arab states other than Algeria's successful independent movement against an colonial power like France. That was a victory. Arab armies defeating Kurdish rebels in Iraq and Syria on multiple occasions were also a victory. Arabs in Sudan fighting against South Sudanese were also a victory. Arabs fighting against Iran during the Iran-Iraq war were not a victory but neither a defeat and Iraq, despite being a 3-4 times smaller country and having a 2.5 times smaller population back then inflicted more harm on Iran and conquered and held more Iranian territories for longer than vice versa.

So we are back to Israel, one of the few nuclear-armed states that enjoys full backing of the Western world and the US. A country which elite were European Jews familiar with WW1, WW2, hardened soldiers during WW2 and who fought for their very survival after Holocaust in their own country.

Now Arab armies back then were lead by incompetent regimes who were conspiring against each other and officers who were no different.

Google "understanding modern Arab military effectiveness" and read the PDF file and learn about what has been a problem back then and still is a problem for some Arab armies. Read about the chain of command in particular.

This has nothing to do with anything else but structural problems.

Now, did Pakistan not lose half of its country (certainly population) during a war against India and is most of Kashmir not occupied by India? Yes or no?

Did Pakistan ever attack Israel? Yes or no?

If no, do you think that Pakistan is in a position to lecture here? Yes or no?

Here u go, did we fight israel???, we are the only ones who have shot down israeli jets, no arab state has done that so in essence, in ur little war we damaged israel more than u ever could.
Pakistani Air Force Pilots shot down 10 Israeli Air force Jets
By
The London Post
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13th April 2015
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Famous Pakistan Air Force PAF Pilots Who Shot Down Israeli Jet Fighters - Air Commodore Retired Sattar Alvi
(Exclusive By Shahid Qureshi) During the so-called ‘Six Day War‘ (1967), which generated American Jewish support for the Zionist entity for the first time – Pakistani pilot Saiful Azam joined tiny Jordanian Air force. On June 5, Saiful Azam engaged four Israeli jets over Jordanian Mafraq air base. He shot down a Mystére commanded by Israeli pilot H. Boleh and damaged another that crash-landed in Israeli territory.

Pakistani pilot Saiful Azam as a young Fl. Lt. pilot in the 1960s. (Photo courtesy AP)
Two days later, Jordanian air force commander sent Saiful Azam to help Iraqi air force. While piloting the Iraqi Hunter Azam shot down two of the Israeli attacking planes. Pakistani pilots shot down a total of ten Israeli jets during 1967 war without losing a pilot or aircraft. Saiful Azam, native of East Pakistan – joined Bangladesh Air Force in 1971. Both the US and Israel helped India to create Bangladesh out of East Pakistan. Saiful Azam has the unique honor of the only pilot in the world who downed four Israeli jets – and served in four airforces; Pakistan, Jordan, Iraq and Bangladeshi. He also hold world record of shooting-down three kinds of military aircrafts in two different air forces. During October 1973 Israel’s Yom Kippur war on its Arab neighboring countries – A squadron of Pakistan’s Pakistan Air Force (PAF) arrived in Syria to fight alongside the SAF and halt the Israeli advance over the Golan Heights. The PAF pilots Sattar Alvi and Arif Mansoor, engaged and shot down an Israeli F-4 Phantom over Egyptian airspace.

Famous Pakistan Air Force PAF Pilots Who Shot Down Israeli Jet Fighters – Air Commodore Retired Sattar Alvi – Interview Below.


Another dogfight between the PAF and IAF over Syrian airspace came to a memorable end with Pakistan obliterating the Israeli Mirage IICJ flown by M. Lutz with air-to-air missiles. This was enough to convince other Israeli fighter planes to bug out and abort all further incursions into Syria. Other Pakistani pilots who joined Syrian force as volunteers included future Air Marshal Nur Khan, Salem Metla, Shahbaz Khan, Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja’at. Late President of Syria Hafiz Assad awarded two of the pilots’ country’s highest decorations for gallantry.

Pakistani air force states that all its 12 volunteer pilots scored direct hits against Israeli aircrafts and suffered no losses. During the 1973 war, Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, flying a Syrian aircraft to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat. Similarly on the Egyptian front, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif, flying an Egyptian MiG-21 shot down an Israeli F-4 phantom in an air combat. Pakistani Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft in any of the wars.

 

[TheCamelGuy]

I was hoping you would avoid this kind of emotional rants. Yet you did anyways.

Lets begin with All the equipment Egypt Saudia, UAE and Qatar or GCC has . You guys are using american french and russian equipment. Those Aerial assets will not work against Israel airforce. US and french will make sure of that. Europeans also. Do I need to explain you further how it will not work ?

Your arabs are going to fight against Israelis without aerial assets ?

Manpower ? Can you tell me How arab armies can fare better without Airforce backing them up ? Saudis are gaining ground in yemen because of their airforce and aerial assets.

If American, French and Russian aerial equipment doesn't work then that leaves the Pakistani air force with a fleet that won't stand against Israel's.

As for the article 'Why Arabs lose wars'. It's referring to the past and organizational issues, you're jumping from arms to organization. 2 differing topics, what makes Pakistan a better candidate in either? I don't see any proof of it.

 

[Awan68]

Why are you using this language that used mostly by Iranians,Turks and westerners??!

Aren't you an arab from awon tribe?!

The words you used against arabs are the same words westerners use to insult Pakistanis and other Muslims

I love all arabs, all turks, all iranians and every muslim on earth, i just detest and hate al sauds and thier sympathizers. They have destroyed Arabia and reduced it to a laughing stock of the world and i can never forgive these alsauds for that, i can never forgive these rats for siding with the britsh and betraying the caliphate back in ww1.

 

[Bratva]

Israel is the only example that you can mention. In the modern era Arabs have not been fighting against non-Arab states other than Algeria's successful independent movement against an colonial power like France. That was a victory. Arab armies defeating Kurdish rebels in Iraq and Syria on multiple occasions were also a victory. Arabs in Sudan fighting against South Sudanese were also a victory. Arabs fighting against Iran during the Iran-Iraq war were not a victory but neither a defeat and Iraq, despite being a 3-4 times smaller country and having a 2.5 times smaller population back then inflicted more harm on Iran and conquered and held more Iranian territories for longer than vice versa.

So we are back to Israel, one of the few nuclear-armed states that enjoys full backing of the Western world and the US. A country which elite were European Jews familiar with WW1, WW2, hardened soldiers during WW2 and who fought for their very survival after Holocaust in their own country.

Now Arab armies back then were lead by incompetent regimes who were conspiring against each other and officers who were no different.

Google "understanding modern Arab military effectiveness" and read the PDF file and learn about what has been a problem back then and still is a problem for some Arab armies. Read about the chain of command in particular.

This has nothing to do with anything else but structural problems.

Now, did Pakistan not lose half of its country (certainly population) during a war against India and is most of Kashmir not occupied by India? Yes or no?

Did Pakistan ever attack Israel? Yes or no?

If no, do you think that Pakistan is in a position to lecture here? Yes or no?



When did you fight the USSR? Most of the fighting was done by Afghan villagers using Western equipment. Prior to that USSR was mass-murdering and carpet bombings Afghans who stood no chance. 1-2 million civilians died.

Pakistani advisers were present in Afghanistan and helped coordinate the battle against the USSR but Arabs support this with money, logistics as well as over 10.000 volunteers.

Personally I believe that we should have kept out as this gave us nothing good but the start of the failed "Jihadi" era.

I asked you to do an indepth technical research on Pakistan loosing its half because it was overwhelmed numerically as well as the nation turned hostile from within. Army was squeezed from both sides. Just as the syrian war. Assad regime was going to collapse. But it was Russia and Iran that saved it. Had Pakistan any external support in 1971 back then, We could have survived.

basic 101 of war fighting. So your comparison of Pakistan loosing cant be quoted in this context.

Who trained all the afghanis and gave them support to launch attack soviets ? Were it arabs ? Can arab of modern era are capable enough to launch insurgency of such scale which Pakistan launched and were successful in it ?

 

[Awan68]

If American, French and Russian aerial equipment doesn't work then that leaves the Pakistani air force with a fleet that won't stand against Israel's.

As for the article 'Why Arabs lose wars'. It's referring to the past and organizational issues, you're jumping from arms to organization. 2 differing topics, what makes Pakistan a better candidate in either? I don't see any proof of it.

We make our own aircraft mate, j 17 block 3 is slated to enter production by end of 2018 with aesa, irst, hmd, hobs etc at par with any western fighter, we already have made a 100 jf 17 block 1 and 2 and by 2023 we will field our own fifth gen fighter under project azm already launched and work underway since half a decade, look it up. In adittion to that we make our own tanks, own apcs etc... we make our own ballistic missles whose prowess is recognized by Us itself on several ocassions. We have developed tactical nukes which only 3 other countries have done so till date, we have developed mirv missle tech which too is exclusive only to 3-4 other nations, we make our own drones, we make highly potent and extremely effective airlaunched, submraine launches and ground launched cruise missles. We are a nuclesr traid power which means no matter what, no other power on earth can ever invade us. We were the sixth largest nuclear power in the world 10-12 yrs ago. Experts believe by now we are the 4rth largest, behind Russia, Us and China, but we will never declare it. We have several icbms or different ranges capable of reaching anywhere but we wont declare that too, incurs needless sanctions, so again i ask you, what do u make or have, we sre almost 70 self sufficient in defence equipment while u people are 100 percent reliant on foriegn states. The only thing we actually lacked is robust economy due to the rignteous war we have been fighting with the last pagan stronghold on earth but that too is on way to be rectified with cpec.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I asked you to do an indepth technical research on Pakistan loosing its half because it was overwhelmed numerically as well as the nation turned hostile from within. Army was squeezed from both sides. Just as the syrian war. Assad regime was going to collapse. But it was Russia and Iran that saved it. Had Pakistan any external support in 1971 back then, We could have survived.

basic 101 of war fighting. So your comparison of Pakistan loosing cant be quoted in this context.

Who trained all the afghanis and gave them support to launch attack soviets ? Were it arabs ? Can arab of modern era are capable enough to launch insurgency of such scale which Pakistan launched and were successful in it ?

Sure, excuses and more excuses. Arabs can't afford excuses the other way from your likes though and there it is all black and white despite actual facts on the ground proving you wrong.

What about Kashmir?

It's not very difficult for a neighboring country with a population of 100 million (back then) to train a few Afghan villagers and providing them with Western weapons that were bought by Arabs.

Where there as many Pakistani volunteers fighting against the Soviets as there were Arabs compared to the fact that no Arab country is even close of neighboring Afghanistan and that country not being in our backyard?

US involvement is what changed the conflict and US weaponry. Pretending otherwise is a joke and even more so claiming that you "won" against the USSR. There was no victory as the USSR inflicted 10.000 times the pain and left a totally destroyed and failed nation that has remained the same here 30 years after. If anything it was the average Afghan villager that won and he must be given the biggest credit but I am not impressed by this war at all. It is not different than the victory of the Iraqi resistance that made the US leave in 2011 and which inflicted many more casualties from 2003-2011 than Afghans have inflicted of harm on the US in Afghanistan since 2011 (over 2 times the time period).

We make our own aircraft mate, j 17 block 3 is slated to enter production by end of 2018 with aesa, irst, hmd, hobs etc at par with any western fighter, we already have made a 100 jf 17 block 1 and 2 and by 2023 we will field our own fifth gen fighter under project azm already launched and work underway since half a decade, look it up.

You are talking as if you made all this from scratch and without any outside assistance. Without Chinese support none of this would have been done. It is similar to KSA's recent cooperation with Antonov and the new planes that KSA and Ukraine have built together expect for a much lesser time period and experience but eventually we will reach that level. Parts of the F-15's are already made and assembled by local Saudi Arabian engineers.

@Bubblegum Crisis

 

[jewishm]

you just cant touch us.

 

[Bratva]

If American, French and Russian aerial equipment doesn't work then that leaves the Pakistani air force with a fleet that won't stand against Israel's.

As for the article 'Why Arabs lose wars'. It's referring to the past and organizational issues, you're jumping from arms to organization. 2 differing topics, what makes Pakistan a better candidate in either? I don't see any proof of it.

You are right. Pakistan wont stand a chance but then we have Strategic assets which can destroy airbases, C4ISR centers of Israel. Degrading their warfare capability and making the play field even for both of them Does Arab states have such strategic assets ?

Organization and arms. Pakistan has been fighting an insurgency in its country past 12 years and without the help of external armies, they are able to win against the elements and reclaim the lost ground. Can you find another example of where army, all alone, have done this ?

 

[TheCamelGuy]

We make our own aircraft mate, j 17 block 3 is slated to enter production by end of 2018 with aesa, irst, hmd, hobs etc at par with any western fighter, we already have made a 100 jf 17 block 1 and 2 and by 2023 we will field our own fifth gen fighter under project azm already launched and work underway since half a decade, look it up.

Already know it, that aircraft won't be on par with what Israel gets.

 

[SALMAN F]

you just cant touch us.

You are right muslims are busy killing each other just look at the threads on this web and specially this thread and you can see the hate and racism against each other

 

[TheCamelGuy]

You are right. Pakistan wont stand a chance but then we have Strategic assets which can destroy airbases, C4ISR centers of Israel. Degrading their warfare capability and making the play field even for both of them Does Arab states have such strategic assets ?

Arab states have ballistic missiles as well as cruise missiles, but they will be of no use for you as launching them means the launch will be detected which means Israel launches back nuclear missiles.

Organization and arms. Pakistan has been fighting an insurgency in its country past 12 years and without the help of external armies, they are able to win against the elements and reclaim the lost ground. Can you find another example of where army, all alone, have done this ?

TTP?

I doubt that was alone when the US funded many of your F-16 purchases, provided intel and conducted drone strikes as well as captured Bin Laden in your country (if all that was real). Pakistan was not invaded by a superpower, it didn't undergo regime transitions through military force like some other Arab states. To take 12 years to deal with an insurgency whilst you did not go through these scenario's is nothing to be proud of.

You have no relevant edge over Arab states in this scenario, neither are you able to deploy it against Israel as that would mean your front is open for your enemy India. Better for you to solve your own problems before you try to be America.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

You are right. Pakistan wont stand a chance but then we have Strategic assets which can destroy airbases, C4ISR centers of Israel. Degrading their warfare capability and making the play field even for both of them Does Arab states have such strategic assets ?

Organization and arms. Pakistan has been fighting an insurgency in its country past 12 years and without the help of external armies, they are able to win against the elements and reclaim the lost ground. Can you find another example of where army, all alone, have done this ?

So you admit that Pakistan would not win a war against Israel (by default the US as well) and liberate Palestine either so what are we discussing here exactly? Maybe that is why Pakistan have never even attempted to do such a thing. It seems that Pakistani generals are more clever than keyboard warriors on PDF.

Yes, you have nuclear weapons and missiles related to this that Arabs do not have due to outside interference (Israel and USA) preventing such a thing from happening.

Without any help? Are you sure? What about all those US drone attacks in Pakistan that occasionally kill civilians and even Pakistani soldiers? What about the US aid (billion big) that your government receives from the same US? What about your fighter jets and most of your weapons which are of Western origin? What about Chinese support?

Yes, I can. Iraq just did it against a much harder advisory (Daesh) and more territory and Yemenis are doing it in Yemen while we speak with the help of KSA and the Arab coalition.

While you have done an overall good job (credit where credit is due) it is not exactly an accomplishment to have your own house in order in this case the tribal regions of Pakistan and the Pakistani-Afghan border. That's a basic thing. Same with the sporadic unrest in Baluchistan. Yet despite this Pakistan is one of the most hit countries when it comes to terrorism. Is that success to you? Is that not failure objectively speaking?

 

[Awan68]

Already know it, that aircraft won't be on par with what Israel gets.

I take it u point towards f 35 which israel is getting, didnt i already tell u we have launched pur own 5th gen project azm under which we will have stealth aircraft by 2023, work has been underway since 5 yrs on this project with chinese collaboration. So by 2023 our airforce will have locally built jets to counter anything that israel will hold in the future. And dont underestimate jf 17 block 3, it will have every tech 4.5 gen western jets have.

So you admit that Pakistan would not win a war against Israel (by default the US as well) and liberate Palestine either so what are we discussing here exactly? Maybe that is why Pakistan have never even attempted to do such a thing. It seems that Pakistani generals are more clever than keyboard warriors on PDF.

Yes, you have nuclear weapons and missiles related to this that Arabs do not have due to outside interference (Israel and USA) preventing such a thing from happening.

Without any help? Are you sure? What about all those US drone attacks in Pakistan that occasionally kill civilians and even Pakistani soldiers? What about the US aid (billion big) that your government receives from the same US? What about your fighter jets and most of your weapons which are of Western origin? What about Chinese support?

Yes, I can. Iraq just did it against a much harder advisory (Daesh) and more territory and Yemenis are doing it in Yemen while we speak with the help of KSA and the Arab coalition.

While you have done an overall good job (credit where credit is due) it is not exactly an accomplishment to have your own house in order in this case the tribal regions of Pakistan and the Pakistani-Afghan border. That's a basic thing. Same with the sporadic unrest in Baluchistan. Yet despite this Pakistan is one of the most hit countries when it comes to terrorism. Is that success to you? Is that not failure objectively speaking?

Why are u carefully avoiding the article i have waved multiple times in ur face about Pakistan shooting down 10 israeli jets when u have never even shot even one down.

 

[TheCamelGuy]

I take it u point towards f 35 which israel is getting, didnt i already tell u we have launched pur own 5th gen project azm under which we will have stealth aircraft by 2023, work has been underway since 5 yrs on this project with chinese collaboration. So by 2023 our airforce will have locally built jets to counter anything that israel will hold in the future. And dont underestimate jf 17 block 3, it will have every tech 4.5 gen western jets have.

In that case the argument becomes Chinese vs US technology, that's a different topic.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Why are u carefully avoiding the article i have waved multiple times in ur face about Pakistan shooting down 10 israeli jets when u have never even shot even one down.

Unfunded articles at best and I stopped taking you seriously ages ago and you confirm it again. Yes, no Arab pilots shot down any Israeli pilot. How can any sane person have a serious discussion with you when such claims are being made? Yet you claim to be of Arab ancestry and claim extreme proudness due to this yet you do not even know the basics. Unbelievable.

Yes, and I can also mention how Arab volunteers in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere defeated USSR soldiers, Russian soldiers and Serbs while heavily outnumbered and capturing numerous of them alive. Even mention you specific battles and ambushes from Afghanistan, Chechnya and Bosnia alike. This proves nothing.