Islamic culturalization of India since 1947.

[kuge]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

that video clip was made in 1986 not in the 70s'
btw i prefer each cultures retain its own characteristics in this case sari worn by indian ladies.Myindian school teachers's saris were beautiful in my opinions.

 

[kongn]

The old mirza dreaming of his lost past again,unable to digest his fall from grace and erosion into insignificance.
The first lie is kameez is an islamic dress.Trousers were introduced by the sakas,kameez is worn in western india since 2000 years ago.Saree is classical dress that reached its current form during gupta period.Lehenga choli is also over 2000 years old.I have gupta era painting and sculptures to prove it if you want.
Kameez is worn for convenience and also it was popularized by punjabi khatri dominated bollywood particularly in the 90s with colour television.Today westerns and casuals are used for same reason,influence of hollywood and ease of wearing.Saree/lehenga is still used by common womenfolk in most of the country particularly east and south.Saree is also a prestige dress used for occasions.
Kebab as eaten today IS largely of turkish muslim origin,though meat on hooks is found in banquets in mahabharata.Musical influence is funny,indian classical music is more sophisticated than anything muslims had and were in turn influenced by it.
Geometric patterns are everywhere in the construction of indian temples,you just have to look.Also iconography has not decreased at all.Go to any street in india,any home.
In reality pakistanis are obsessed with indian bollywood songs and dramas,even though they hate it because they are unable to produce any culture of their own,while indian culture is quite popular worlwide and contributes to indian softpower.Pakistan has zero soft power or cultural influence.

 

[Indos]

Most of these culture and traditions are technically not islamic but Persian culture (and to a much lesser extent central Asian turkic culture) . These culture and traditions are vastly different from the original Islamic (Arabic) culture.
If you guys ever visit SE Asian Muslim countries like Indonesia you will see many of the stuffs people in subcontinent associate as being Islamic are not present there

What is actually being Islamic that you are talking ? I can see from clothing of the women, here is what is happening in Indonesia now, very different during Soeharto regime

Dont mention Malaysia since in Malaysia only 60 percent Muslim, even in big city like Kuala Lumpur, Muslim only represent around 40 percent.

This is in Kebun Raya Bogor, West Java, Indonesia. Sumatra, Kalimantan, Java, South Sulawesi, and Lombok are Muslim majority region. North Sulawesi/NTT/Papua are Christian region while Maluku is 50:50. Bali is Hindu majority region

 

[Titanium100]

The old mirza dreaming of his lost past again,unable to digest his fall from grace and erosion into insignificance.
The first lie is kameez is an islamic dress.Trousers were introduced by the sakas,kameez is worn in western india since 2000 years ago.Saree is classical dress that reached its current form during gupta period.Lehenga choli is also over 2000 years old.I have gupta era painting and sculptures to prove it if you want.
Kameez is worn for convenience and also it was popularized by punjabi khatri dominated bollywood particularly in the 90s with colour television.Today westerns and casuals are used for same reason,influence of hollywood and ease of wearing.Saree/lehenga is still used by common womenfolk in most of the country particularly east and south.Saree is also a prestige dress used for occasions.
Kebab as eaten today IS largely of turkish muslim origin,though meat on hooks is found in banquets in mahabharata.Musical influence is funny,indian classical music is more sophisticated than anything muslims had and were in turn influenced by it.
Geometric patterns are everywhere in the construction of indian temples,you just have to look.Also iconography has not decreased at all.Go to any street in india,any home.
In reality pakistanis are obsessed with indian bollywood songs and dramas,even though they hate it because they are unable to produce any culture of their own,while indian culture is quite popular worlwide and contributes to indian softpower.Pakistan has zero soft power or cultural influence.

what are you saying Kameez is from the Gupta period? This is blatant revisionism

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

what are you saying Kameez is from the Gupta period? This is blatant revisionism

No we are saying Kameez is a product of Scythian import prior to Guptas...Scythians are a horse heavy people....Gupta military was the most cavalry oriented Gangetic military in indian history with the possible expcetion of the Rajputs and the Marathas

The old mirza dreaming of his lost past again,unable to digest his fall from grace and erosion into insignificance.
The first lie is kameez is an islamic dress.Trousers were introduced by the sakas,kameez is worn in western india since 2000 years ago.Saree is classical dress that reached its current form during gupta period.Lehenga choli is also over 2000 years old.I have gupta era painting and sculptures to prove it if you want.
Kameez is worn for convenience and also it was popularized by punjabi khatri dominated bollywood particularly in the 90s with colour television.Today westerns and casuals are used for same reason,influence of hollywood and ease of wearing.Saree/lehenga is still used by common womenfolk in most of the country particularly east and south.Saree is also a prestige dress used for occasions.
Kebab as eaten today IS largely of turkish muslim origin,though meat on hooks is found in banquets in mahabharata.Musical influence is funny,indian classical music is more sophisticated than anything muslims had and were in turn influenced by it.
Geometric patterns are everywhere in the construction of indian temples,you just have to look.Also iconography has not decreased at all.Go to any street in india,any home.
In reality pakistanis are obsessed with indian bollywood songs and dramas,even though they hate it because they are unable to produce any culture of their own,while indian culture is quite popular worlwide and contributes to indian softpower.Pakistan has zero soft power or cultural influence.

Good call regarding trousers coming in with the Sakas/Sakae/Scythians.......Prior to the rise of Gurjara-Pratiharas/Rajputs post-700 AD the only native horse oriented culture in subcontinent proper was perhaps in the Potohar PLateau

Kameez is better for astriding a horse


@Indus Pakistan clothings of the Indus region has been meticulously recorded in the stone carvings of the Achaemenid Empire.....I will see whether i can dig them up...this is circa 500 BC

yes found it..the below link

History of clothing in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kambojaric]

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

Agreed and Bollywood in turn has been Punjabified. The beauty norms of Asian countries are clearly defined and the prevalence of lighter skin amongst Punjabis coupled with the image of Punjabis as "boisterous" as this journal puts it (https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication Files/21-077_6547bcf4-d0eb-4d54-ad62-c99e604e797f.pdf) allowed Hindi-language cinema to be dominated by an ethnic group which inevitably shares linguistic and cultural ties across the border. In fact many of their major Bollywood families have origins in Pakistan.

 

[-=virus=-]

A good example and visibly obvious. 80% of Mumbai women were semi naked and the Sari was ubiquitous . Today the Sari is 20% and Shalwar Kameez with a decidely modest scarf draped has replaced in 80% of your women. Any doubts look at your old videos of Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkatta. Your women have gone from looking like Hindu temple damsels as seen on statues to women dressed like they do and did in Lahore.

Any doubts look at old videos of your cities from 1960s and 1970s.

lol, and where do you get your stats from ? shooting in the dark with small vintage clips of an India from 40- 50 years ago ?

culturally, we've taken the good and reject the bad from that ideology.

there's plenty of mini skirt, bikini, and all manner of western clothing that's fairly common among urban Indian women too.

you'll see a LOT more single independent young working women in India than across the border into your side. Women riding bikes/scooters on the street..

anyway, Islam is part of the cultural mix in modern India, but we're not an Islamic country.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

shooting

The change is obvious but if you refuse to accept it there is no point of discussing with you. Besides Indian Punjab or other slivers near Pakistan rest of India until recently was pucca Hindu temple mode. And you know that.

A shalwar Kameez is dress informed by Islamic idea of modesty. You know hiding the female form by wearing baggyn shalwar, long kameez again to cover the arse and a scarf to cover the head. We al know what Hindu ideas are on female modesty.

And what I am supposed to do? Cite some academic paper that covered how many Indian women walked around naked like junglees in 1950? I think all know the gist of what I said.

Even you do.

 

[Surya 1]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

And yet pakistan animocity dith India increased. You have a very fertile brain. I am amazed.

 

[-=virus=-]

The change is obvious but if you refuse to accept it there is no point of discussing with you. Besides Indian Punjab or other slivers near Pakistan rest of India until recently was pucca Hindu temple mode. And you know that.

A shalwar Kameez is dress informed by Islamic idea of modesty. You know hiding the female form by wearing baggyn shalwar, long kameez again to cover the arse and a scarf to cover the head. We al know what Hindu ideas are on female modesty.

And what I am supposed to do? Cite some academic paper that covered how many Indian women walked around naked like junglees in 1950? I think all know the gist of what I said.

Even you do.

fine

India has been totally Islamized, then.

 

[Maarkhoor]

O.P has heinous dirty agenda, he wants to see all Hindu women at least half naked.
@Indus Pakistan

 

[Indus Pakistan]

O.P has heinous dirty agenda, he wants to see all Hindu women at least half naked.

Back to the good old days. Even the Hindus have been 'Pakistanized'. Covering up and going Muzee like.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Back to the good old days. Even the Hindus have been 'Pakistanized'. Covering up and going Muzee like.

I would say they have been Pakistanized or North Westernized...Not Islamicized...Saudi Arabian (headquarters of Islam) women have completely different dressing....

 

[lastofthepatriots]

The old mirza dreaming of his lost past again,unable to digest his fall from grace and erosion into insignificance.
The first lie is kameez is an islamic dress.Trousers were introduced by the sakas,kameez is worn in western india since 2000 years ago.Saree is classical dress that reached its current form during gupta period.Lehenga choli is also over 2000 years old.I have gupta era painting and sculptures to prove it if you want.
Kameez is worn for convenience and also it was popularized by punjabi khatri dominated bollywood particularly in the 90s with colour television.Today westerns and casuals are used for same reason,influence of hollywood and ease of wearing.Saree/lehenga is still used by common womenfolk in most of the country particularly east and south.Saree is also a prestige dress used for occasions.
Kebab as eaten today IS largely of turkish muslim origin,though meat on hooks is found in banquets in mahabharata.Musical influence is funny,indian classical music is more sophisticated than anything muslims had and were in turn influenced by it.
Geometric patterns are everywhere in the construction of indian temples,you just have to look.Also iconography has not decreased at all.Go to any street in india,any home.
In reality pakistanis are obsessed with indian bollywood songs and dramas,even though they hate it because they are unable to produce any culture of their own,while indian culture is quite popular worlwide and contributes to indian softpower.Pakistan has zero soft power or cultural influence.

Your bollywood has copied countless songs from Pakistan, my shameless bharti fraaand. In reality you Indians are culture vultures because you fail to produce anything in the modern age. Thank the Islamic invaders for teaching you mongrels how to wash your ***.

 

[kingQamaR]

As I Pakistani I have zero Interest in India being pro or anti Islam. Why do we majority Pakistanis get dragged in to this rubbish for most of us just don’t care what Indians in the end become