Isis: Majority of British people do not support air strikes against Syria

[Penguin]

It's more like a political act,France wants to push for the European defence,the idea to bolster the EU defence.
European nations are pretty nowhere,while we deployed 10.000 soldiers in overseas operations,almost nobody came to our help us on the ground,only some logistic supports..... only the Netherlands deployed some special forces with us in Mali,but it was more like under UN if i'm not wrong. (But also mainly for reconnaissance and gathering intelligence ) @Penguin

European nations are pretty nowhere. The only nations that proposed to help us are the UK,which will deploy a destroyer to protect our A/C (Already has the protection needed),and we are waiting for you to also act with us in Syria. Germany,pretty useless,a frigate to "defend" our A/C (It already has the needed protection....) and some Tornados,only for reconnaissance missions and Belgium who is also providing a frigate,so it's almost nothing. France decided to invoke the article 42.7,just to push more seriously toward an European defence,otherwise we would have invoked the NATO's article 5 and we would have had the help needed,because only the US would have seriously given the help needed. (Even if Obama is the most useless president the US ever had.)
But some European nations have cut their armies to a nowhere level,that i lost some hope....

Amazing how 28 nations let only one to act in the interest of the Union....

@Abingdonboy

Dutch missions abroad according to Dutch MoD:

The Netherlands armed forces currently has 1,320 members of personnel deployed to over 20 missions abroad (as of 25 November 2015). Dutch military personnel thus contribute to stability and security throughout the world on a daily basis.

Missions abroad | Topic | Defensie.nl

The United Nations are committed to helping restore security and stability in Mali. Their instrument for this is the Multidimensional Integrated Stabilisation Mission in Mali (Minusma). As of April 2014, the Netherlands is making a major contribution to this mission, comprising about 450 personnel, 4 Apache attack helicopters and 3 Chinook transport helicopters.

Current missions | Missions abroad | Defensie.nl
Dutch contributions in Mali | Mali | Defensie.nl

German missions abroad (can't pblame them: no one in Europe wants German troops outside Germany ;-)
No Security for Germany without Security for Russia

You can 'dis' the German and UK and Belgian offers of ships (Belgians have ex-Dutch frigates), but they allow France to withdraw French naval units and for the same expense do other things.

The Carrier Battle Group (Groupe Aéronaval, GAN, in French) of the Force d'Action Navale is usually composed, in addition to the aircraft carrier, of:

• a carrier air wing (Groupe Aérien Embarqué, GAE, in French), a complement composed of about 60 aircraft:
  • Rafale F3 and Super Étendard (up to 30)
  • E-2C Hawkeye (2)
  • SA365 Dauphin (3) for RESCO and EC725 Caracal for CSAR (2)
• one Rubis-class submarine
• two anti-submarine destroyers (currently Tourville or Georges Leygues class)
• one or two anti-air destroyers (Horizon or Cassard class)
• one stealth frigate in forward patrol (usually a La Fayette class)
• one supply ship

A Daring class Type 45 would be a welcome complement if the group has only 1 Horizon or just Cassard class AAW destroyers. The German and Belgian frigates probably are a generation ahead of the Leygues class ships (Leygues were considered by the Dutch navy, but these then opted for the national S-Frigate Kortenaer class. The Belgian ship is an ESSM equipped M-class, which is the S-class follow-on. I don't know which German frigate, but their oldest F122 Bremen class is parallel to Dutch Kortenaer and shares the same hull. With Mk29 Sea Sparrow launcher and 2x RAM. The F-123 Brandenburg class is a larger follow on with VL Sea Sparrow. If it is an F124 Sachsen, then it is an ever newer AAW ship, equipped like the Dutch LCF 7 Provincien with APAR, SMART-L and ESSM/SM2 > If I were the French, in the Eastern Med, under current conditions, I'ld take all the AAW ships I could get)

 

[Vergennes]

Dutch missions abroad according to Dutch MoD:


Missions abroad | Topic | Defensie.nl


Current missions | Missions abroad | Defensie.nl
Dutch contributions in Mali | Mali | Defensie.nl

German missions abroad (can't pblame them: no one in Europe wants German troops outside Germany ;-)
No Security for Germany without Security for Russia

You can 'dis' the German and UK and Belgian offers of ships (Belgians have ex-Dutch frigates), but they allow France to withdraw French naval units and for the same expense do other things.

The Carrier Battle Group (Groupe Aéronaval, GAN, in French) of the Force d'Action Navale is usually composed, in addition to the aircraft carrier, of:

• a carrier air wing (Groupe Aérien Embarqué, GAE, in French), a complement composed of about 60 aircraft:
  • Rafale F3 and Super Étendard (up to 30)
  • E-2C Hawkeye (2)
  • SA365 Dauphin (3) for RESCO and EC725 Caracal for CSAR (2)
• one Rubis-class submarine
• two anti-submarine destroyers (currently Tourville or Georges Leygues class)
• one or two anti-air destroyers (Horizon or Cassard class)
• one stealth frigate in forward patrol (usually a La Fayette class)
• one supply ship

A Daring class Type 45 would be a welcome complement if the group has only 1 Horizon or only Cassard class AAW destroyers. The German and Belgian frigates are a generation ahead of the Leygues class ships (Leygues were considered by the Dutch navy, but these then opted for the national S-Frigate Kortenaer class. THe Belgian ship is M-class, which is the S-class follow on. I don't know which German frigate, but their oldest F122 Bremen class is parallel to Dutch Kortenaer and shares the same hull.The F-123 Brandenburg class is a larger follow on. If it is an F124 Sachsen, then it is an ever newer AAW ship, like the Dutch LCF 7 Provincien > If I were the French, I'ld take all the AAW ships I could get)

I won't criticize their "contributions",but how is sending some frigates effective in the fight against ISIS ? or against any terrorist group we are fighting ?
The CDG doesn't face any threat from ISIS or others,so we would have prefered a more constructive help. (Like joining us in the airstrikes or something like that,helping us in other operations ! )

 

[Penguin]

I won't criticize their "contributions",but how is sending some frigates effective in the fight against ISIS ? or against any terrorist group we are fighting ?
The CDG doesn't face any threat from ISIS or others,so we would have prefered a more constructive help. (Like joining us in the airstrikes or something like that,helping us in other operations ! )

Sending frigates is to some extent symbolic, and to some extent reflects what some countries can actually send, or can send on short notice.

• The Belgian Land Component is the Ground Arm of the Belgian Defence and currently has 20,100 soldiers and consists of consists of one staff (COMOPSLAND), two brigades (one light and one medium) and several support units. That's (all of) it. The men in the light brigade are all qualified Paratrooper and Commando personnel, except for the light infantry battalions. The Medium Brigade is used for actions where heavy firepower and heavily armored vehicles are needed.
  
• The role of the Bundeswehr is described in the Constitution of Germany (Art. 87a) as absolutely defensive only. Its only active role before 1990 was the Katastropheneinsatz (disaster control). Within the Bundeswehr, it helped after natural disasters both in Germany and abroad. After 1990, the international situation changed from East-West confrontation to one of general uncertainty and instability. Today, after a ruling of the Federal Constitutional Court in 1994 the term "defence" has been defined to not only include protection of the borders of Germany, but also crisis reaction and conflict prevention, or more broadly as guarding the security of Germany anywhere in the world. Since the early 1990s the Bundeswehr has become more and more engaged in international operations (See Bundeswehr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

CDG is best ready for defence against any feasible attack, including by Su-24 or Su-30, C-802, P-800 Yakhont. France only has a single carrier, it can't afford to have it put out of action.

On 24 September 2014, the Dutch government announced its participation in the operations against ISIL in Iraq. Since late 2014, eight F-16s (with two kept in reserve) were deployed to Jordan. Since then, numerous air attacks have been conducted on tactical facilities of ISIL, like camps and command posts. The F-16s also give air support to Iraqi and Kurdish ground forces. In June 2015 the Royal Netherlands Air Force flew its 1000th sortie above Iraq. During the first 9 months of the mission 575 strikes have been carried out. The country is short on bombs as we speak. Nonetheless, there is the distinct possibility of widening the scope of operations from Iraaq to included Syria.

Military intervention against ISIL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TMA]

It seems to me that some users on this thread have not realized that NATO, at least in part, has been supporting ISIS to some extent.

I personally question the French sincerity in the fight against ISIS. But then again maybe ISIS has perfomred all it could for NATO and now the rabid dog must be put down...time will tell. But I do not trust the French. Or any major NATO member.

 

[livingdead]

Its just that its the first time in my life i have seen someone saying we should all leave ISIS/Al Qaeda and other terror groups govern/rule the land they occupy. lol I am yet to see even some relatively radical Muslim members here make such a statement. lol

So its surprising, i will assume every member on here will agree with me that it's surprising to see someone(even more so a Hindu) say such a thing. lol

Anyway, thing is we should and will go after any group that threatens our interests/people wherever they might be hiding one way or another, despite what other might say its better than waiting and leaving these terrorists groups alone and expecting them never to strike us. Wishful thinking.

thats exactly the point I was making... because you are used to similar views, you will be shocked by different view. Its natural because most of the media space is saturated by single view, ISIS raped xyz, ISIS roasted and ate human etc etc.
And because you are used to such group thinking, its shocking why somebody with 'hinduguy' as id should not make common cause and say 'kill those bastards' coz you know we face them at home. lolz.
It makes no sense, the world is divided into neat groups, and every group should think similar within themselves... right?

Ah brainwave, must be a false flagger, and has an agenda... an ISIS sympathizer may be.. kiiiil him...

still nobody answered my question, how will you do it differently this time. Whats the strategy?
5 year down the line, same people will be cursing dave just like they do blair. The same people enthusiastically wanted iraq war.

 

[Schutz]

Air strikes or not they would attack if they could, they are almost all useless and inept and our security services usually know 99% of would be attackers, the others are usually just four lions esque and never complete their tasks. Sure it will happen sooner or later anyway attack or not, may aswell just blow them up for the sake of it, if the worst they can do is blow up a hundred people in retaliation then thats as far as their reach will go.

 

[Post Colonnial]

Decisive leadership and action is required. You either succumb to the islamic nuts or you destroy them: 0 or 100. Bush went in with 75% resolute...wasn't enough. Obama has gone in with 20% resoluteness and that hasn't helped. All other countries and leaders have been similarly wishy wash essentially because they have not been effectively able to devise a strategy that separated the peaceful muslim from the terrorist muslim and therefore the global quagmire goes on and on.

Countries such as Pakistan, Iran, KSA, Syiria etc playing cat and mouse games with these nuts has only emboldened, funded and armed them.

What's clearly being demonstrated is that if America does not take the leadership mantle the rest of the world is incapable resolving major risks. BUT to exercise such leadership America has to be strong enough to endure charges of being bullies....For example Bush bullied Pakistan into compliance and was therefore able to destroy the growing Al Qaeda...almost. Economic woes in the US did not allow him or his successor to complete that strategy to the end and so the weeds though 90% destroyed came back from the 10% left!

The best thing that can happen to the world and the peace seeking sectiond of muslims is that America gets rid of it guilt complex and once again lead

 

[Penguin]

It seems to me that some users on this thread have not realized that NATO, at least in part, has been supporting ISIS to some extent.

I personally question the French sincerity in the fight against ISIS. But then again maybe ISIS has perfomred all it could for NATO and now the rabid dog must be put down...time will tell. But I do not trust the French. Or any major NATO member.

And you think you are telling something new? How many thread posts on PDF already about US/NATO creating ISIS ....?

 

[TMA]

And you think you are telling something new? How many thread posts on PDF already about US/NATO creating ISIS ....?

Well said.

 

[24 Hours]

I think ISIS should be allowed to govern the land they have occupied(sunni majority area), just like hamas does. As long as they promise not to push further(may be UN backed forces can enforce that), nobody need to fight against them.
With all their brutality and barbarism, ISIS has territorial ambition, which means they will one day sit across table and talk(unlike AQ for example who are anarchist by nature).

And I dont think UK's defence lies in ME, it lies at home, they should strengthen domestic security and border forces.

Not gonna happen. And I highly doubt Iraq is willing do sacrifice more land for a group like ISIS. More importantly why would ISIS suddenly just stick to one area? They already declared themselves as a world wild Caliphate, That throws out your idea away. Additionally they already have a strong presence in Libya and let's not get started with terrorist groups in far away countries like Nigeria and the Philippines that have sworn loyalty to ISIS there.

 

[livingdead]

Not gonna happen. And I highly doubt Iraq is willing do sacrifice more land for a group like ISIS. More importantly why would ISIS suddenly just stick to one area? They already declared themselves as a world wild Caliphate, That throws out your idea away. Additionally they already have a strong presence in Libya and let's not get started with terrorist groups in far away countries like Nigeria and the Philippines that have sworn loyalty to ISIS there.

ISIS does not have capability to fight and take over other areas. But yeah I agree your second bit, negotiating with them will promote similar groups elsewhere.Thats a risk you need to take while talking to such group. Does not US negotiate with taliban?
Iraqis dont have much option. They dont want to live together, splitting the country is a good solution, just like it happened in subcontinent.

 

[barbarosa]

French pilot does not know yet that who are ISIS? I do not acknowledge this news.

 

[Imran Khan]

simply because paris is not in UK ?

 

[TheShaheen]

They may have suspected that they were spies.

ISIS specifically mentioned the bombing by France as a reason for the Paris attacks.

UK bombing of ISIS will inevitably make it more likely that ISIS will want to attack the UK - only way to reduce the threat is to go in with ground troops.

Go all the way or stay out completely.

Absolutely agreed....

- Bombings do not achieve anything... All terrorist groups have learnt from the Vietnam War (Years of pounding Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia achieved nothing... Humans learn to survive.. Google: TUNNELS, Vietnam defeated a superpower)

- Check YouTube, they already found hundreds of tunnels around Sinjar...meaning hundreds of French and US sorties have been useless, other than enriching the Industrial-Military complex.... They are probably digging miles of them around Mosul too as we speak...

The ONLY way you can defeat ISIS is massive ground forces, encircling them, which would have to include Arab, Middle Eastern, US, Turk, Russian, UK, Iraqi etc forces... They can't do it, as they are all thinking about their own interests AND ISIS knowns that...

Their real aim is to kill few foreigners on the ground and that would cause massive recruitment drive for them... Divide et Impere... Checkmate... Sorry guys..

Read on.. He says it all.. One of the few who went inside ISIS and came out alive... Also on YouTube...


I know Isis fighters. Western bombs falling on Raqqa will fill them with joy | Jürgen Todenhöfer | Comment is free | The Guardian