ISI to have more civilians at the top

[simplestguy]

Uncle sam's new afghan policy, this has to be done.

 

[CriticalThought]

Do you even know what this Agency is & what it stands for?
Do you even know what Civilians in this agency have done for the country?
Do you even know that your entire Strategic Organization is run by Civilians? & I mean SPD, NESCOM, AWC, etc .... do remind me how man secrets were sold off by civilian officials in this organizations ---
Not every tom dick & harry gets to work in ISI, heck the recruitment procedure demands such a calibre that even your Army Officers might not be able to clear that procedure ----
there are hundreds of Contract employees working in the Agency performing technical roles at the rank of BPS 18, those guys will get nothing at the end of their service & yet they are working tirelessly ---- there are civilian field operatives doing tremendous job while conducting IBOs, Surveillance ...... so please give some credit where its due

The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.

Ultimately ISI works under Government of Pakistan. I some how managed to get information of current ISI needs and deployment related to ICT infrastructure and security because i already experienced some Internet Service Providers companies during my professional career. You know who were the advisers of ISI officers during meetings with ISP companies these were civilians hired from Third Party companies which is very risky.
YOu can get an experienced SSG officer from Tri services or professional Doctor from Mecial Corps but from where you will get experienced ICT professional, Finance professional and Cyber Security professional?

Both military and Civilians depends upon each other. More challenges are awaited in future and we have to enhance our capabilities by mutual cooperation and understanding.

The route to such expertise should be the usual commission offered after bachelors. They should formally induct into the military. And no PM should have any say into any appointment in the ISI, PERIOD.

 

[Max]

For what role they need multiple civilian DGs?

 

[Burhan Wani]

The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.



The route to such expertise should be the usual commission offered after bachelors. They should formally induct into the military. And no PM should have any say into any appointment in the ISI, PERIOD.

A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.

A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.

 

[CriticalThought]

For what role they need multiple civilian DGs?

Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.

A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.

A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.

Fine. But what is the need to increase the grade and seniority level of civilians? At most, they can be paid very high salaries if their services are irreplaceable. But no civilian should even think of acquiring seniority, decision making powers, and access to sensitive administrative information.

 

[Winchester]

We have had people in the military too whose loyalty to the country you can question. There have been numerous cases to bust this illusion of the military somehow immune to this phenomenon.

According to some accounts it was an Army Brigadier who walked into the American embassy and told them he had info regarding OBL's location.

I myself recently ran into a bhagora from NESCOM who happened to be from the Army.

 

[Clutch]

if they need a think tank i am ready to join them

Only one small snag... you might be missing the thinking part of the "think tank" ...

"tank" yes; "thinking" not so much...

 

[Burhan Wani]

Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.



Fine. But what is the need to increase the grade and seniority level of civilians? At most, they can be paid very high salaries if their services are irreplaceable. But no civilian should even think of acquiring seniority, decision making powers, and access to sensitive administrative information.

Let me explain.
Q#1. YOu want to create finance division in ISI and you need a head of this directorate what will be the requirement?
Ans: A. 12-15 year of experience professional with PMP certification, CA/ICMA or MS 18 year qualification in finance , Economics and Banking. Can you fill this requirement from defence forces never civilian will be required. But if you need a professional with that much experience you should provide him attractive package in the form of salary and benefits because he will never quit his current job for low profile job.
B. If you induct military officer of the rank of LT Col in this post who is experienced in Heavy mecahnized Unit he will ruin entire department.

To meet future challenges you can never ever completely depend upon defence forces because it is not their work to manage Finance divisions, ICT departments, Media professionals and other expertise who are irrelevant.

 

[Amaa'n]

A militarized person can be more discipline but you cannot fill patriotism, dedication and great intellect during training. Pakistan Army has a dedicated core of Signals but still they are dependent upon civilians have experience in more sophisticated specialties. I will not share internal story but there are still many departments in Intelligence agencies in role of managed services, supervised by civilians and authorized by Intelligence agency personnel.
I attended many meetings during my professional career related to Cyber security within the presence of military officers but they were completely unaware to understand our terminology. There is always a civilian adviser with intelligence agencies during such meetings.

A fresh graduate is like a child but if you train him well on multiple technologies, with time he will become a professional. I hope you understand.

Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----

The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.
.

The civies have already been working till the post of BPS 19 - Director level, but they need to climb up the ladder further - not to enjoy the authority but to effectively manage their department ----
Let me put it this way -
You have a Tech team working on GIS project (now this could be CT related) they require some tools, instruments, equipment to upgrade their system - now those demands would be understood well by a Professional with in the same field or some Brigadier sb who have spent some tough nights at the mountains of FATA ----

Also you don't get the point of increasing the seats for Civilians either --- it will ease off the pressure on Military to have an equally competent commander in place --- they don't need to pull a good commander from Military because they will have a Civil commander who has served same amount of time fighting tangos in Urban areas, going through same level of training ---- & more diplomatic approach -----

 

[Max]

Obviously to water down the power structure and create opportunities for buying out more people at topmost ranks.

well, let the ISPR speak, i am sure Govt will be doing with establishment's approval. you cannot run older setup for centuries, you have to bring changes, be positive,

 

[Amaa'n]

Ultimately ISI works under Government of Pakistan. I some how managed to get information of current ISI needs and deployment related to ICT infrastructure and security because i already experienced some Internet Service Providers companies during my professional career. You know who were the advisers of ISI officers during meetings with ISP companies these were civilians hired from Third Party companies which is very risky.
YOu can get an experienced SSG officer from Tri services or professional Doctor from Mecial Corps but from where you will get experienced ICT professional, Finance professional and Cyber Security professional?

Both military and Civilians depends upon each other. More challenges are awaited in future and we have to enhance our capabilities by mutual cooperation and understanding.

You are focusing all lot on Civilians in IT related fields, but the truth is there are many civilians working in Field Operations too, performing Counter Intelligence, Intelligence & Surveillance , CT roles -- this would involve conducting raids, interviews, Forensic evidence collection -----

Am out of this thread now, too much fanboyism here ----

 

[Burhan Wani]

Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----

I tried my best through further explanation in better way. He will understand it now.
By involving military in every department we are not only ruining their expertise but we are burdening their work. Once i experienced on-service naval officer who was from Ordinance department and have very little idea about Information Technology but his assignment was a Managerial role in a IT department of leading university related to Defence forces.(I will not disclose name)
We have plans to upgrade their data Center and i personally collected all necessary requirements and equipment who were required during this project. After necessary arrangements i entered well furnished office of the Naval officer to share list of requirements but he refused to observe with one sentence. "Beta you are professionals with more related experience to me, i am from ordinance but i don't know why they transferred me here. From my side you are cleared to procure what ever you want because i trust you and i don't have single idea related to ICT industry".

You are focusing all lot on Civilians in IT related fields, but the truth is there are many civilians working in Field Operations too, performing Counter Intelligence, Intelligence & Surveillance , CT roles -- this would involve conducting raids, interviews, Forensic evidence collection -----

Am out of this thread now, too much fanboyism here ----

Sir actually i am actually Professional engineer have experience in this industry that is why i am trying to explain with my own prospective and experience.

 

[PakBlood]

Well, this is certainly a move to welcome.

It should be known that intelligence agencies around the world operate as civilian institutions and actually draw their agents/empoyees from the civilian populace rather than cherry-picking them from the military,this includes the CIA which requires applicants to have at least a bachelor's degree with a 3.0 GPA, others that employ civilians include the Mossad,MI6 and even our beloved R.A.W.

Also, other nations are careful to keep their intelligence agecies under their control and supervision rather than giving them a free-hand to create a "Political Wing" to manipulate national politics(see:https://www.dawn.com/news/331357).

But still, these civilian appointments might end up rotting the ISI like the rest of our civilian institutions such as the police or customs,but may God forbid this from happening.

 

[Amaa'n]

Sir actually i am actually Professional engineer have experience in this industry that is why i am trying to explain with my own prospective and experience.

am an engineer too but different subject, different industry , i was just trying to explain the situation that how civilians are embedded into security establishment & the wider role they are taking

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@DESERT FIGHTER "Inter-Services" means amongst the intelligence services not the military. It's a hark-back to its original role, to act as a clearing house for other Agencies, which it still does to an extent.

The Army's intelligence is MI.

So ISPR also means that?