ISAF (NATO) Killed 3 Pakistani Soldiers @ Pak-Afghan Check Post (Again)

[karan.1970]

I'm afraid you are unfamiliar with some military rules. Here's one of them: When an armed unit of one nation passes over the border into another sovereign nation and comes under attack, they are supposed to immediately turn back. If they engage the incomming fire by retaliating, it is considered an invasion.

Only in case of warning shots. If shot upon, they are allowed to engage in self defence..

 

[Desert Fox]

Only in case of warning shots. If shot upon, they are allowed to engage in self defence..

self defense? why did they even cross the border in the first place?

 

[karan.1970]

self defense? why did they even cross the border in the first place?

There is no doubt that the intrusion was ill advised. However what we are discussing is the reaction to the intrusion why that was wrong too..

2 wrongs dont make a right....

 

[SekrutYakhni]

There is no doubt that the intrusion was ill advised. However what we are discussing is the reaction to the intrusion why that was wrong too..

2 wrongs dont make a right....

Karan you are NATO and I am a Pakistani soldier!

We are close enough--You raise your hand to slap me..In return, I say it loud 'KARAN STOP'--Instead of stopping, you go ahead--Who is wrong?

Yeah, you can go on and on and on--NATO soldiers did not know the location of Pakistani post--OR--They panicked--Do you really think that this is the case---

Even if it was a mistake from NATO's side (killing the soldiers)--Do you really think that the 'cross border' act was a mistake too? I don't think so!

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Only in case of warning shots. If shot upon, they are allowed to engage in self defence..

If you violate someone's airspace, u r not entitled to warning shots as of right.

 

[karan.1970]

If you violate someone's airspace, u r not entitled to warning shots as of right.

you are if you are not in a state of war..

You guys are so off the mark. Tell me honestly... USA is a friend (though its a weird friendship at times), but you guys didnt even fire at Indian jets when they came in during the mumbai fiasco. Only locked on as a warning. Then why this stupidity with a chopper of an ally..??

 

[karan.1970]

Karan you are NATO and I am a Pakistani soldier!

We are close enough--You raise your hand to slap me..In return, I say it loud 'KARAN STOP'--Instead of stopping, you go ahead--Who is wrong?

Yeah, you can go on and on and on--NATO soldiers did not know the location of Pakistani post--OR--They panicked--Do you really think that this is the case---

Even if it was a mistake from NATO's side (killing the soldiers)--Do you really think that the 'cross border' act was a mistake too? I don't think so!

Thats the point. In this case you didnt say KARAN STOP. You just went ahead and slapped and got slapped back.

I dont think cross border action was a mistake. I think its a change of tactics by NATO to pressurise Pakistan into action against AT

 

[Parashuram1]

I'm afraid you are unfamiliar with some military rules. Here's one of them: When an armed unit of one nation passes over the border into another sovereign nation and comes under attack, they are supposed to immediately turn back. If they engage the incomming fire by retaliating, it is considered an invasion.

Quite agreeable, sir. However considering the military rules of engagement you have mentioned here, this also necessitates the presence of a clearly marked border between two sovereign territories; something that seems to be absent between Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the presence of such a situation, this becomes extremely confusing for the gunship pilots and they can simply mistake the ground fire coming toward them as a Taliban attempt to take them down.

There is almost always some sort of warning before being fired upon even from ground to air communications. Did the Pakistani post radio the gunship pilots into their alleged territorial breach and warn them in advance of changing their flight course back into Afghanistan? The reports don't seem to be mentioning so. Either the ground troops on Pakistani side should not have engaged considering they didn't have the right communication equipment on the scene or they should have alerted the nearest air station to issue a warning to the pilots. Shots without any warning are not considered protocol and the reaction of pilots of any country in the scenario would have been similar to what the gunship pilots did- shoot back.

Friendly fires are a result of severe mis-communications and this is what seems to have happened there. Blaming the pilots simply doesn't merit any sympathy to either party.

 

[air marshal]

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

you are if you are not in a state of war..

You guys are so off the mark. Tell me honestly... USA is a friend (though its a weird friendship at times), but you guys didnt even fire at Indian jets when they came in during the mumbai fiasco. Only locked on as a warning. Then why this stupidity with a chopper of an ally..??

Dude, it is opur country , do u mind or really there i snotrhing else left to do?

BTW, in case if India, we are neighbors. It can never be the same thing. Seriously, once in ur life time, support your neighbors where it really matters. It is not a stupidity, if it is then india 's defence doctrine must me pretty %^$^&# up( but i hope it is not)
leave our biz to us.

You've already seen the "results" of the incursion, harsh statements form Pakistan. There are countries that wont even go that far.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Thats the point. In this case you didnt say KARAN STOP. You just went ahead and slapped and got slapped back.

I dont think cross border action was a mistake. I think its a change of tactics by NATO to pressurise Pakistan into action against AT

Thand rakho yaar.............. u gots to realize it is a sensitive matter for us. respect that & sometimes it is better to ignore the "slap".

 

[karan.1970]

Thand rakho yaar.............. u gots to realize it is a sensitive matter for us. respect that & sometimes it is better to ignore the "slap".

The US can turn back and say the same to you.. To ignore the incident...

---------- Post added at 01:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------

Dude, it is opur country , do u mind or really there i snotrhing else left to do?

BTW, in case if India, we are neighbors. It can never be the same thing. Seriously, once in ur life time, support your neighbors where it really matters. It is not a stupidity, if it is then india 's defence doctrine must me pretty %^$^&# up( but i hope it is not)
leave our biz to us.

You've already seen the "results" of the incursion, harsh statements form Pakistan. There are countries that wont even go that far.

Whatever.. I think you know what I am saying here..

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

The US can turn back and say the same to you.. To ignore the incident...

True that, but it is not for you to tell us what to do or how to feel. Not sure why this enthusiasm.

 

[muse]

Because US helped the Pakistani leadership box itself in to a scheme of decption as far as it's own population is concerned, the US knows and the Pakistanis know, that Pakistan has few if any options -- Pakistanis have a right to ask why have armed forces if all such armed forces are good for is to serve the interests of Western powers - How do you like them F-16s now?


The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
Pakistan furious with US over fatal raid, but there's little it can do

Pakistan closed a key border-crossing to NATO trucks supplying coalition forces in Afghanistan after a NATO helicopter raid killed three Pakistani troops. But it will likely have to relent soon.


By Howard LaFranchi, Staff writer
posted October 1, 2010 at 4:04 pm EDT
Washington —

Pakistan has always bristled at US airstrikes inside its territory, but a helicopter gunship attack earlier this week that killed three Pakistani border guards has led to new frictions and exposed heightened sensitivities over Pakistan’s growing dependence on American support.

US and Pakistani officials have until now managed to paper over unresolved differences over how to deal with insurgents who attack US and NATO forces in Afghanistan from their command-and-control centers in neighboring Pakistan. But this time Pakistan closed a vital supply route for provisioning US and NATO forces in Afghanistan, causing US military and civilian leaders to scramble to attempt to undo the action.

US officials predict the border crossing – one of two Pakistani crossings used by NATO to move supplies into Afghanistan – will reopen soon. The Pakistani government, largely dependent on the US and the West, has no other choice, analysts agree. But the move to close the border crossing, they add, lays bare the government’s inability to react strongly to violations of its sovereignty.

“They don’t have too many cards to play without hurting themselves,” says Marvin Weinbaum, a former State Department Pakistan expert now at the Middle East Institute in Washington. Closing border crossings used by the US “in some ways is their trump card, but they are not really going to play it.”

“They know full well that if they persevered with this, they’d be putting the whole relationship with the US in jeopardy,” he says.
US and Pakistan: uneasy alliance

About three-quarters of the supplies for the 120,000-strong NATO force in Afghanistan move through Pakistan. The US, meanwhile, provides Pakistan with about $2 billion in military aid annually.

The cross-border attack came at a time when the US was already stepping up unmanned drone attacks on Taliban and insurgent refuges inside Pakistan. The US launched a record number of these attacks in August.

The NATO helicopter attack that killed the three border guards – the fourth such manned cross-border strike in about a week – is part of an upswing in manned aircraft strikes. It reflects new NATO willingness to enter Pakistani airspace to pursue insurgents fleeing to refuge across the border.

But Pakistan’s tit-for-tat action also suggests a civilian government that is weak and desperate to demonstrate to the Pakistani public – already estranged by government corruption and an ineffective flood response – that it is standing up to the deeply unpopular Americans.

"I want to assure the entire nation from this house that we will consider other options if there is interference in the sovereignty of our country," Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani said Friday in a speech to parliament.

Mr. Gilani’s comments, in which he repeated Pakistan’s commitment to fighting Islamist extremists that have targeted the country’s civilian government, came a day after he took a call from Sen. John Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign relations Committee, seeking to smooth out the rough patch in US-Pakistan relations.

A reminder of the fragility of the Pakistani supply line came Friday when gunmen attacked a convoy of NATO fuel tankers, burning as many as 40 vehicles.

How to 'walk back' now?

The key now will be some US effort allowing the Pakistanis to “walk back” from the border closing while saving face, Mr. Weinbaum says.

“If they [in the government] hadn’t shown some backbone here it could have really been devastating for them,” he says. “But now they will have to walk back on this, and the key will be the way they do it."

“The US can help them do that," he adds.

One possibility is a joint investigation into the incident.

Continuing deterioration in the Pakistani government’s standing with the public has led to speculation of a military coup.

But Weinbaum says he doesn’t see the military itching to topple the civilian leadership. “Yes, the military is putting pressure on the government, but the way I see it the military leadership really does want the government to do better,” he says. Pointing to the Pakistani military chief, Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, he adds, “He would welcome the government being able to stand up more so that his hand isn’t forced.”

 

[Musafar]

why the HECK have soldiers on the border NOT been equipped with MANPADS or stinger missiles????


I am very dissapointed as I would think this would be an essential piece of kit that all the guards in various checkpoints should have at their disposal to teach these lying S.O.B's a lesson in "hot pursuit".

ESPECIALLY since the last time it happened in 2008 11 pakistani army soldiers were killed by NATO.

I'm bewildered that no higher-ups in the military have even thought of this, probably too busy touring the USA, brushing up on their english and feeling good about getting a medal from the yanks.