Is There A Clash Of Civilizations?

[INDIC]

I think mughals are too much overrated

Yes, I know this.

There's definitely a clash of civilizations but not just between Islamic Pakistan and Hindu India since the appearance of Humans.

There is nothing called Hindu India.

 

[Contrarian]

Its simple history......Muslims were not indigenous to the sub continent........Islam spread here and survived all because of them....if it wasnt for them there will be no Muslims here, what to speak of Pakistan......so the connection here is quite valid they may be central asians but we share common history.

Nope. If at all islam spread and survived it was because of mughal patronage.

Afghan invaders are afghan and not Pakistani. Quite surprising that for a country that claims a rich history of its land cannot name its national assets on people of the same land.

 

[INDIC]

Could be I am not aware of that....but for this faujhistorian dude....MBQ never even existed.

He didn't say Muhammad Bin Qasim never existed, he meant to attack the greatness Pakistanis attached to him.

Do you know accroding to Chachnama, MBQ took 60,000 slaves including women in Brahmanabad. 30 young female slaves were taken from the Royal family including two daughter of Raja Dahir. The author of Chachnama further narrates “Muhammad bin Qasim replied that he had no orders to spare anyone in the town, and that his soldiers had to do the slaughtering for three days… 700 beautiful females, who were under the protection of the temple, were all captured along with their valuable ornaments and clothes adorned with jewels.” Muhammad Bin Qasim inflicted 6000 deaths at Rawar, around 16000 at Brahmanabad, 4000 at Iskalandah and 6000 at Multan.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Nope. If at all islam spread and survived it was because of mughal patronage.
.

Islam in the Indus valley (Punjab, KPK, Balochistan, and Sindh) predates Mughals by at least 500 years if not more. Sufis of ancient times didn't have to do much. Indus valley folks were familiar with Bhudism, and egalitarian paganims, with a bit of Hindu Brahmins and Kashatryas (mostly Jaat warriors) sprinkled around the valley. These are the guys who decided to accept much more lose version of Islam compared to what was prevalent in Arab tribals.

So the credit goes to the local population and the sufis for the spread of Islam among the sons of soil.


Invaders were not allowed to stay in the Indus valley. No wonder they would always make a hasty passage through this valley and go straight to UP and Bihar the places around Ganga valley.

But your average Mutala-e-Pakistan will not tell you the reality. Instead these 3rd grade sarkari history will always say invader this and invader that.


peace

 

[Contrarian]

Islam in the Indus valley (Punjab, KPK, Balochistan, and Sindh) predates Mughals by at least 500 years if not more. Sufis of ancient times didn't have to do much. Indus valley folks were familiar with Bhudism, and egalitarian paganims, with a bit of Hindu Brahmins and Kashatryas (mostly Jaat warriors) sprinkled around the valley. These are the guys who decided to accept much more lose version of Islam compared to what was prevalent in Arab tribals.

So the credit goes to the local population and the sufis for the spread of Islam among the sons of soil.


Invaders were not allowed to stay in the Indus valley. No wonder they would always make a hasty passage through this valley and go straight to UP and Bihar the places around Ganga valley.

But your average Mutala-e-Pakistan will not tell you the reality. Instead these 3rd grade sarkari history will always say invader this and invader that.


peace

It isnt just either this or that. Its a whole lot of things combined.
Still. ..hard to understand using names of afghans particularly when they dont like nor care for Pakistan.
Pakistan should live and like its own history. ..not borrowed glory of non Pakistanis.

 

[FaujHistorian]

He didn't say Muhammad Bin Qasim never existed, he meant to attack the greatness Pakistanis attached to him.

.”

Thank you.

Obviously someone is getting desperate when his 3rd grade Mutala-e-Pakistan history is challenged.

....
Do you know accroding to Chachnama, MBQ took 60,000 slaves including women in Brahmanabad. 30 young female slaves were taken from the Royal family including two daughter of Raja Dahir. The author of Chachnama further narrates “Muhammad bin Qasim replied that he had no orders to spare anyone in the town, and that his soldiers had to do the slaughtering for three days… 700 beautiful females, who were under the protection of the temple, were all captured along with their valuable ornaments and clothes adorned with jewels.”

Chachnama the original may not have survived the test of time. So these stories now sold as chachnama are more like fiction.

Sindhi Islam is the most easy going and egalitarian. This would not have happened if the region was impacted by such cruelty that you describe (and attributed to the chachnama).

peace.

 

[FaujHistorian]

It isnt just either this or that. Its a whole lot of things combined.
.

yeap. This is a valid argument.

Still. ..hard to understand using names of afghans .

No name is an "Afghan" property, copy righted, and patented. They didn't invent any. Just took stuff or shared stuff with their neighbors due north, south, east and West.

A name you think is "Afghan" perhaps is as Punjabi, or Persian or Turkic as it comes.


So there is no need to fuss about the names. Really.

 

[Developereo]

I think many people are arguing here, but basically saying the same thing.

The fact is that Pakistanis are genetically locals. Those Pakistanis who think that having the same genetic material as the Hindus is some sort of stigma, and that they are descended from Arabs or Turks, are living in la-la land. There was surely some infusion of genetics by the foreigners, but the impact would be negligible.

On the second point, the Indians are also denying reality. The fact is that the biggest draw for Islam was liberation from the local caste-based society. That is why Buddhists in Sindh backed MBQ over the local Hindu king, and why many south Asians converted to Islam. While it may be uncomfortable for Indians to admit this fact, we can see it happening even in modern day India where Christian missionaries allegedly have the most success amongst the dalits and lower caste Hindus.

 

[Contrarian]

No name is an "Afghan" property, copy righted, and patented. They didn't invent any. Just took stuff or shared stuff with their neighbors due north, south, east and West.

A name you think is "Afghan" perhaps is as Punjabi, or Persian or Turkic as it comes.


So there is no need to fuss about the names. Really.

The point is not the etymology of the name but the country that the person belonged to as per modern boundaries.

The symbology of the name becomes important as it points to how Pakistanis are not cognitive of their own history and the pride and glory of those who would have been modern day Pakistanis rather than modern day central asians who most Pakistanis feel they are descended from or attempt to immitate.

I think many people are arguing here, but basically saying the same thing.

The fact is that Pakistanis are genetically locals. Those Pakistanis who think that having the same genetic material as the Hindus is some sort of stigma, and that they are descended from Arabs or Turks, are living in la-la land. There was surely some infusion of genetics by the foreigners, but the impact would be negligible.

On the second point, the Indians are also denying reality. The fact is that the biggest draw for Islam was liberation from the local caste-based society. That is why Buddhists in Sindh backed MBQ over the local Hindu king, and why many south Asians converted to Islam. While it may be uncomfortable for Indians to admit this fact, we can see it happening even in modern day India where Christian missionaries allegedly have the most success amongst the dalits and lower caste Hindus.

It is not about who is descended from where but how Pakistanis are not proud of their own history and its glory but try to usurp and falsely try to identify with central asians.

 

[INDIC]

Chachnama the original may not have survived the test of time. So these stories now sold as chachnama are more like fiction.

Sindhi Islam is the most easy going and egalitarian. This would not have happened if the region was impacted by such cruelty that you describe (and attributed to the chachnama).

peace.

chachnamah was written by Arab Qazi Ismail. Sindh soon came under the Soomro dynasty who followed many local Sindhi customs.

But there are some fake stories to demonize Raja Dahir like he married his own sister while Hindus don't even marry in same Clan(gotra) forget sister or cousin.

 

[ShahidT]

Ghauri, Ghaznavi and Durrani were first-class pillagers. they were forced to repeatedly attempt invasions toward the plains because their barren Afghan desert could not grow crops worth mentioning to feed their populations. and people praising them, hats off to you. you may have no affection for this land but for me the fertile soils of Punjab and Sindh are flesh and blood.

every time they used to burn down dipalpur or lahore, our ancestors sung praises to high heavens because they happened to be musalmans right? you think they came to spread Islam? they were driven solely by greed and the very real dilemma of feeding poor Afghans. all they did was invade, burn or murder whole villages, rape, loot and tax, then go back. because they knew this land was not theirs, as vindicated by how shortlived their occupation was.

In fact, the kind of sins, immorality they personally committed and allowed their underlings to carry out, makes them muslim only in name. they were far from pious in their acts. Quran and Sunnah teach to only love and spread tawheed in the most peaceful manner possible. where killing any human, muslim or non-muslim, is equivalent to killing all of mankind.

all three of them, not to mention countless others, would have faced tough questions on Judgement day, because Afghanistan wasn't invaded, ransacked or even posed a threat to by the people that they slaughtered. so they can't claim higher moral ground or religious justification. for them massacring innocent, defenseless natives was an enjoyable hobby, pastime and entertainment. but what goes around comes around. afghanistan remains what it has always been.

The first people to come populate coastlines from Karachi to Kolkatta were Africans. Not too different from modern day aboriginies in Australia.

finally someone on this forum with a sense of anthropological history related to early humans. the only slight correction I'd like to make is, the second wave of migrations from east africa actually arrived by water somewhere at the south-western coast of subcontinent, near present day Kerala or thereabouts, according to genetic markers.

many of those proto dravidians started moving to northern plains of the subcontinent around 40-60 thousand y.b.p., where their genetic characteristics naturally diverged over tens of thousands of years from their kin that remained in the south. academic discourse widely agrees that the Indus/Ghaggar Hakra civilization was populated by people already native to the land thousands of years prior, i.e. 'Ancestral North Indian' descendants of those proto-dravidian migrants. once it declined most likely due to natural calamity, the inhabitants did not go underground or vanish, but migrated eastward closer to himalayas and yamuna-ganga to form the backbone of Ved civ.

Central Asian populations had zilch to do with Indus valley, and it's very questionable whether they had anything to do with the Vedic civilization (a British colonial narrative). again, genetic markers only indicate a central asian addition to the consistent subcontinental gene pool within the past 2,000 years. no such evidence, whether in the Vedas themselves or the markers, exists to postulate their assimilation or substantial settlement here before that.

The reason some haplogroups are shared between with Iranic and C. Asian populations, is because those people trace their lineage to the first wave of migration out of East Africa through egypt and arabia/levant, and the entire spectrum of genes (incl. y- and mtDNA) all over the world were present in that initial east african population (where the orgins of modern homo sapiens more than 110,000 y.b.p lay). hence, we are their distant cousins, just as we're related to chinese and native americans in a far off way. but owing to natural geographic barriers or prosperity of their own agricultural civilizations, Iranic peoples & central asians did not migrate to leave a genetic presence in South Asia until the past two thousand years. When they did, it was as a peripheral, distinguishable group that adopted the local culture, not as people who 'introduced' it or formed the core of its early articulation.

genetics and darwinian insights are a wonderous thing, truly. few fields stimulate thought and awe as much. now I know why pioneers in this field, wherever they were from, had a distinctly humanist, egalitarian disposition regarding how society should be organized. In fact the same is true for all great minds that pushed limits of our knowledge about the universe. refer to Albert Einstein's 1949 essay, "Why Socialism?"

 

[Developereo]

It is not about who is descended from where but how Pakistanis are not proud of their own history and its glory but try to usurp and falsely try to identify with central asians.

Well, it's like this...

Even though Islam was present in the subcontinent before the military conquests, it is also true that those conquests helped establish an environment where the message of Islam could spread to the local masses. Could the message have spread without official patronage? It's hard to second-guess history since there was no concept of global media in those days.

Given the fact that Islam exists in parts of India which were not conquered, it proves that the conquests were only one factor in the spread of Islam in the subcontinent.

So, since we are happy to be Muslims, we accept whatever role those invasions played in shaping our history. Yes, there was brutality involved, but that's par for the course in ancient military conquests -- and not so ancient ones.

 

[INDIC]

I found this poem written by a Punjabi Poet of that time about Ahmed Shah Abdali

"khada peeta laahey daa, te rehnda Ahmad Shahey daa" ("what we eat and drink is our property; the rest belongs to Ahmad Shah.")

 

[hassan346]

we r first pakistani then muslim

 

[ShahidT]

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It was Baba Bulleh Shah