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Is secularism to be blamed for lack of Indian Military motivation?

HalfMoon

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Indian military follows secular principles. It may sound good on paper but secularism is bland and does not motivate people to fight. It may work fine in civilian space but certainly not in military space.

On the other hand Pakistan Military is based on Islamic principles which acts as a booster drug as they believe they are fighting and dying for their religion.
 
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Indian military follows secular principles. It may sound good on paper but secularism is bland and does not motivate people to fight. It may work fine in civilian space but certainly not in military space.

On the other hand Pakistan Military is based on Islamic principles which acts as a booster drug as they believe they are fighting and dying for their religion.
you have huge minorities too.... so u cant get religious.... everything has pros nd cons.. i bet IA will be devided and india too if overly they adopt religious core/focal point..
 
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Yes you are right!

A Muslim solider does not fear death and looks forwards to paradise and 72 hooris waiting for him.

While a Hindu/Sikh solider wants to get back to his wife/girlfriend.

If Dharmic soliders where taught dharma and true history they will finish off the mlecch and aspire to attain nirvana. Not be stuck in material world.
 
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I dont know about all that...but religion is a great drug i agree...but in this case what i found bewildering is they sent a four decade old fighter jet to confront a decently equipped adversary...and became the laughing stock of the world...from hero to zero in 24 hours...every indian would be angry at this loss but most wont understand the blunder IAF did fielding such jets from 40 years ago...all they will see is pakistan downed two of their countries jets and thats it...i could understand if we had only old jets at our disposal...but that is not the case...this is just ridiculous...look i am no military expert...just an aam aadmi...but still i cant digest the fact they sent in a good pilot on a jet from the cold war era to fight in 2019 ...unbelievable.
 
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Indian military follows secular principles. It may sound good on paper but secularism is bland and does not motivate people to fight. It may work fine in civilian space but certainly not in military space.

On the other hand Pakistan Military is based on Islamic principles which acts as a booster drug as they believe they are fighting and dying for their religion.
No, the DNA.
You guys are good scientists, doctors engineers, but not good fighters. Your fighter part was separated from you in 1947, that's us.
 
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No, the DNA.
You guys are good scientists, doctors engineers, but not good fighters. Your fighter part was separated from you in 1947, that's us.
Are Punjabi Muslims martial? Do they have a history of war and conquest or at least of resistance to conquest? I ask because there’s no evidence of their martial character in our history. No general, no subedar, no thanedar, no wazir, no bakhshi of the Mughal empire was a Punjabi Muslim so far as I know.

I might be wrong about this but there are only two Punjabi Muslims named in Mughal texts. The first is Kamaal Khan Gakkhar, who submitted (without fighting) to Akbar in 1576, according to Akbarnama. The second is Jalal Khan Gakkhar, an old man named among the victims by Jahangir in a skirmish with Afghans in 1620. A third reference is indirect, the name of the author of Shah Jahan’s Padishahnama is Shaikh Abdul Hamid “Lahori”. The Ain-e-Akbari has one joint reference to Janjuas and Awans, calling them tribes conquered by Afghans. There are of course Punjabi Hindus (mainly Khatris) who fought for the Mughals with distinction. Like Todar Mal, who led the sapping at the siege of Chittorgarh against the Sisodiya Rajputs, and also settled the revenue system for Akbar. Maathir ul Umara says Todar Mal was born in Lahore, though British scholars thought this was Laharpur in Awadh.

Where are the Punjabi Muslims? The fact is that the Punjabi Muslim is a convert mainly from the peasantry (Jat) which is not martial. General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is Gakkhar, a caste that claims Rajput ancestry. The second Rohtas fort was built by Sher Khan Suri to pacify the Gakkhars. In his Tuzuk, Jahangir makes the remark in passing that the Gakkhars are warlike, but adds that they only fight among themselves. Meanwhile Rajput, Afghan, Maratha, Sikh, Jat (Hindu) and tribal Hindu generals all fought for and against Mughal armies. Rajputs had to be continually submitted by force, except for the loyal Kachwahas of Ambar (Jaipur). Right down to Aurangzeb, according to Maasir-e-Alamgiri, Mewar’s Sisodiyas and Marwar’s Rathors resisted the emperor. I clarify here that Muslims other than Punjabis fought the Mughals, and some very well.

Uttar Pradesh’s Rohilla Afghans were enemies of the Mughals and one of them (Najibud Daulah) ruled from Mughal Delhi for 10 years. Turkish-speaking Turani Sunnis and Farsi-speaking Irani Shias were the most important parties in the Mughal court. The former ranked as better fighters than the latter, who were better administrators. The fiercest Indian-origin Muslims were Shias, the Syeds of Barha (in Uttar Pradesh). The Maratha light cavalry was devastating and ended Muslim rule over India. The Sikhs captured Punjab and raided west up to Kabul and east up to the Doab. The Jats south of Delhi made life miserable for the later Mughals. Even the Baniya general Hemu showed martial character, almost ending Mughal rule before falling at the second battle of Panipat.

What exactly did the Punjabi Muslim do? Invaders who got past Peshawar could then only be stopped at Karnal or Panipat because they went through Punjab undisturbed. It is true that the armies of both Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali were harassed in Punjab on their return with Mughal booty, but their attackers were Sikhs, not Muslims. Punjab was a quiet state. Punjabi Muslims neither rebelled against Mughal Delhi nor fought any invader whether Afghan or Persian. Was this because the Punjabi did not want to fight other Muslims? Not really, because he did not even resist being conquered easily by Sikhs.

It is the Englishman who 150 years ago gave the Punjabi Muslim a rifle and taught him how to use it. But this did not require any martial background. The British Bengal army was full of UP Brahmins (like Mangal Pandey). It is only after this formation of the modern regiments, that Punjabi Muslims are called martial by writers like GF MacMunn. After the English left, the record of Punjabi Muslims at war under their own generals is not sterling. I count one draw and one loss and I’m being charitable. Against the Pashtun Talib the record is not encouraging, despite the thousands of martyrs. Nadir Shah said of Indian Muslims after the battle of Karnal that they “know how to die, but not how to fight”.

This is fine and many states of India are not martial. Few soldiers were produced by Bengal’s Hindus for instance, and not many by Gujarat even today. But they don’t have the militant bombast of the Punjabi Muslim (who apparently equals 10 Hindus). I’m just wondering what this bombast is based on because I cannot figure it out.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/444417/is-the-pakistan-army-martial/
 
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Only an idiot will think that secularism is the reason behind lack of motivation....
 
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Fighting it not natural to you guys. You don't even have a word for your martyred that you had to borrow from Islam and Muslims - "Shaheed".
 
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Are Punjabi Muslims martial? Do they have a history of war and conquest or at least of resistance to conquest? I ask because there’s no evidence of their martial character in our history. No general, no subedar, no thanedar, no wazir, no bakhshi of the Mughal empire was a Punjabi Muslim so far as I know.

I might be wrong about this but there are only two Punjabi Muslims named in Mughal texts. The first is Kamaal Khan Gakkhar, who submitted (without fighting) to Akbar in 1576, according to Akbarnama. The second is Jalal Khan Gakkhar, an old man named among the victims by Jahangir in a skirmish with Afghans in 1620. A third reference is indirect, the name of the author of Shah Jahan’s Padishahnama is Shaikh Abdul Hamid “Lahori”. The Ain-e-Akbari has one joint reference to Janjuas and Awans, calling them tribes conquered by Afghans. There are of course Punjabi Hindus (mainly Khatris) who fought for the Mughals with distinction. Like Todar Mal, who led the sapping at the siege of Chittorgarh against the Sisodiya Rajputs, and also settled the revenue system for Akbar. Maathir ul Umara says Todar Mal was born in Lahore, though British scholars thought this was Laharpur in Awadh.

Where are the Punjabi Muslims? The fact is that the Punjabi Muslim is a convert mainly from the peasantry (Jat) which is not martial. General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is Gakkhar, a caste that claims Rajput ancestry. The second Rohtas fort was built by Sher Khan Suri to pacify the Gakkhars. In his Tuzuk, Jahangir makes the remark in passing that the Gakkhars are warlike, but adds that they only fight among themselves. Meanwhile Rajput, Afghan, Maratha, Sikh, Jat (Hindu) and tribal Hindu generals all fought for and against Mughal armies. Rajputs had to be continually submitted by force, except for the loyal Kachwahas of Ambar (Jaipur). Right down to Aurangzeb, according to Maasir-e-Alamgiri, Mewar’s Sisodiyas and Marwar’s Rathors resisted the emperor. I clarify here that Muslims other than Punjabis fought the Mughals, and some very well.

Uttar Pradesh’s Rohilla Afghans were enemies of the Mughals and one of them (Najibud Daulah) ruled from Mughal Delhi for 10 years. Turkish-speaking Turani Sunnis and Farsi-speaking Irani Shias were the most important parties in the Mughal court. The former ranked as better fighters than the latter, who were better administrators. The fiercest Indian-origin Muslims were Shias, the Syeds of Barha (in Uttar Pradesh). The Maratha light cavalry was devastating and ended Muslim rule over India. The Sikhs captured Punjab and raided west up to Kabul and east up to the Doab. The Jats south of Delhi made life miserable for the later Mughals. Even the Baniya general Hemu showed martial character, almost ending Mughal rule before falling at the second battle of Panipat.

What exactly did the Punjabi Muslim do? Invaders who got past Peshawar could then only be stopped at Karnal or Panipat because they went through Punjab undisturbed. It is true that the armies of both Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali were harassed in Punjab on their return with Mughal booty, but their attackers were Sikhs, not Muslims. Punjab was a quiet state. Punjabi Muslims neither rebelled against Mughal Delhi nor fought any invader whether Afghan or Persian. Was this because the Punjabi did not want to fight other Muslims? Not really, because he did not even resist being conquered easily by Sikhs.

It is the Englishman who 150 years ago gave the Punjabi Muslim a rifle and taught him how to use it. But this did not require any martial background. The British Bengal army was full of UP Brahmins (like Mangal Pandey). It is only after this formation of the modern regiments, that Punjabi Muslims are called martial by writers like GF MacMunn. After the English left, the record of Punjabi Muslims at war under their own generals is not sterling. I count one draw and one loss and I’m being charitable. Against the Pashtun Talib the record is not encouraging, despite the thousands of martyrs. Nadir Shah said of Indian Muslims after the battle of Karnal that they “know how to die, but not how to fight”.

This is fine and many states of India are not martial. Few soldiers were produced by Bengal’s Hindus for instance, and not many by Gujarat even today. But they don’t have the militant bombast of the Punjabi Muslim (who apparently equals 10 Hindus). I’m just wondering what this bombast is based on because I cannot figure it out.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/444417/is-the-pakistan-army-martial/

And the answer is @Ahmet Pasha do bhai isko jawab, punjabion k khilaf harza sarai ki hai Isny.
 
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Yes you are right!

A Muslim solider does not fear death and looks forwards to paradise and 72 hooris waiting for him.

While a Hindu/Sikh solider wants to get back to his wife/girlfriend.

If Dharmic soliders where taught dharma and true history they will finish off the mlecch and aspire to attain nirvana. Not be stuck in material world.
Lol.

Reminds me of what we used to say in Hyderabad.
We are best as rulers. You are ok in business.
 
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Aaker Patel is a Gujarati Muslim. I did not write this article.


Sure landya. How your Nizam was cuckolded by Marathas is documented history.
Yet the Marathas ceased to exist by 1820s. And Nizam continued ruling till 1948. Then it was invaded and annexed.
 
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Yet the Marathas ceased to exist by 1820s. And Nizam continued ruling till 1948. Then it was invaded and annexed.
Lol nice madarassa educated guy!

Marathas ruled princely states of satara, kolhapur, gwalior etc. Just like the nizam.

How that coward Nizam ran away to Pakistan is well known.

You non resident Pakistans living in India cannot change history.
 
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Aaker Patel is a Gujarati Muslim. I did not write this article.


Sure landya. How your Nizam was cuckolded by Marathas is documented history.
I am not punjabi. But yes you right I have somewhat Rajput and North Indian ancestory. I have fair colour and strong built. And of course, I feel my self to be a better fighter than Southern guys. But still, I like southern Indian people. Intelligent and pure jems of sub continent.
 
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