Is Pakistani principally a race or ideology?

[B.K.N]

That's what you think... but the way street scene in Pakistan looks like, no one in the world would like to associate him /her self with Pakistan.
Only thing which is reason for Pakistan's existence and value is it's armed forces.

Agar paisay aur patriotism ka koi taluq hota to Nawaz Sharif Zardari Achakai Altaf most patriotic persons hotay but reality is a Pakistani soldier giving life for Pakistan belongs to a poor family and all these rich persons are planning to break and destabilize Pakistan
and this is what is called unconditional love and patriotism

 

[Hamza913]

Yet Pakistanis who claim to be of the same stock as the plunderers and invaders

You guys have serious inability to distinguish between Ashrafs and Ajlafs. Ashrafs claim foreign descent, Ajlafs don't.

 

[paritosh]

I did, and whilst he said something stupid, so did you. Next time, use appropriate wording.

Pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Hamza913]

Pot calling the kettle black?

No, it's gold calling the dirt a piece of crap.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

It is all about degrees. We can quantify the extent of overlap at some level, and then compare how much of an overlap we are looking at.

Indeed, hence why I used proportional %age which showcased that these overlapping ethnic groups are but a drop in the ocean of the Indian population.

The state of Punjab before being split up in the 60s had Himachal and Haryana as well.

The boundaries of the "State of Punjab" was based solely on British Administration rather than ethnicity, language, heritage or culture. Himachal Pradesh is culturally closer to Tibet than it is to Punjab. Neither has Haryana been culturally or linguistically a part of Punjab. No doubt there are segments of these populations which would fit into the Indus cluster like the Jatts, but to include them in whole is simply far-fetched.

Even so, both of these states combined make up a mere 2.7% of the Indian population.

You are not taking West UP (Awadh/Oudh) and Delhi (which were mughal culture centres) into account as well.

I am not sure why you referred to the Mughals, romanticization of them is fairly recent and originates from Islamic nationalism that ignited in the late 1800s and was also introduced by Muhajirs.

Historically the Mughal power-base was in the Delhi region while modern-day Pakistan was usually left autonomous except for some major cities. The people usually saw the Mughals with neutrality and some with even hostility. With many autonomous polities breaking free as soon as they saw an opportunity (modern-day KPK, Sindh, Bahawalpur, Balochistan, etc...). We even had many folk heroes that fought the Mughals and are still revered to this day like Dulla Bhatti.

People of UP and Delhi are foreign to us. Even the partition-era refugees of these areas still identify themselves as Muhajir (migrant) and are seen that way by the natives. The ethnic-tensions in Sindh also highlights the divide.

Neither are you considering the fact that East and Central Pakistan before Islamisation, was ruled by Rajputs.

Claims made by British colonialists with inconclusive, vague and spineless evidence and then parroted by Rajput nationalists. Such claims have been largely dropped in the academic field.

I have no issue with these historic polities in any way connected to the Rajputs, who are another people that are proportionally much more in Pakistan than they are in India, however, to say so is simply infactual and as a man of history, I will not allow such perversion of history.

There are a lot of factors that we are not looking at for the sake of oversimplifying our arguments, for example - there are populations in Bangladesh that have arabic/afghan ancestry (tribes were gifted provinces in bengal during the mughal rule, sea-faring traders settling in Bengal,etc.).

Oh trust me, I have met these "Arab/Afghan Bengalis" and I have seen just how Afghan/Arabic they are. Majority of these self-claims are false, just as those of the Syeds/Qurayshis of Pakistan. Perhaps some of them did have Afghan/Arab ancestors, but I believe it has been diluted to irrelevance.

 

[SQ8]

I would say its a awakening of the enlightened soul gaining insight into the stupendous ordinary workings of life itself yet remaining completely ignorant to the stark reality that exists outside normal dimensions which do not hold any defined space.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

So I was having this discussion in my family, and the topic came up.

To give you a background, I am from the USA and we have a large Pakistani origin population which neither speak any Pakistani tongues, know about our history, care about Pakistani politics, nor self-identify as Pakistani.

So would such persons be identified as Pakistani even if they want nothing to do with Pakistan, and choose instead either to identify only as Muslims or only as Americans (Canadians, Australians, British, Europeans etc.)

Although the concept of a (Muslim) homeland along the Indus/Sindh River is a much older concept, Pakistan was first conceived by our founders as a place where Muslims/Non-Muslims of our region can live in peace, practice our faith, and work on achieving a model nation which promotes equality, freedom, and brotherhood for all its citizens.

The two nation theory and the movement for Pakistan were definitely ideologies and one had to ascribe to them to be part of the Pakistan movement.

After independence, Pakistan and Pakistanis began being treated as an ethnic and racial group by Non-Muslim countries. For example the hateful epithet ‘Paaki’ is racial in design, and not at all ideological.

Sometime after 2000s, Pakistanis, esp in America, began to distance themselves from their country of origin and ascribe to the term ‘Desi,’ whose meaning was changed to incorporate Indians and Bengalis. Desi originally is a term only for Pakistanis (Des, Pardes) or Pakistani products (Desi egg, ghee, chickens, etc.)

So we have a whole generation of descendants of Pakistanis in the diaspora who have no connection or desire to associate with Pakistan. They grew up intentionally avoiding Pakistani languages, Pakistani immigrants (besides relatives,) many have intermarried with people of Non-Pakistani origin, and they have no concept of the history/struggle/politics of the Pakistani homeland.

There is no doubt that Pakistani is now a robust and strong nationality, which has gained a new lease on life thanks to PTI and Pakistani military, however besides this the question needs to be asked.

Is Pakistani a racial, ethnic identity or is it an ideological choice?

For those who do not care for Pakistan (new generation of the diaspora) and those who actively fight against our state (like Husain Haqqani, Altaf Hussain, Rehman Khan, etc.,) are they Pakistanis?

I believe it is both; the ethnic groups of Pakistan are loosely connected and distinct from their Eastern and Western neighbors. However I believe such commonality is not enough to bind this nation (for now) and that is where the ideological factor comes in. To deny the significance of the ethno-racial factor is simply wrong and that was highlighted in the separation of East Pakistan.

If we were to take away the ideological factor, we would've most likely been divided into smaller states (Punjab, Sindh, Kashmir, Balochistan, etc...) that may have later on entered into a federation (as it is today) in the interests of it's members.

I believe Pakistan will eventually face as I call 'national convergence', where our diverse groups will merge into one. The contextual landscape of Pakistan today was very similar to historic England which once had a diverse array ethnic groups, though having commonalities, had their own cultures and languages (eg. Saxons, Angles, Iceni, Celts, Britons, etc...) that eventually merged into one English identity, culture and language.

We are already in the process and unfortunately many of our indigenous languages and cultures have already become casualties, with many more to go.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

So I was having this discussion in my family, and the topic came up.

To give you a background, I am from the USA and we have a large Pakistani origin population which neither speak any Pakistani tongues, know about our history, care about Pakistani politics, nor self-identify as Pakistani.

So would such persons be identified as Pakistani even if they want nothing to do with Pakistan, and choose instead either to identify only as Muslims or only as Americans (Canadians, Australians, British, Europeans etc.)

Although the concept of a (Muslim) homeland along the Indus/Sindh River is a much older concept, Pakistan was first conceived by our founders as a place where Muslims/Non-Muslims of our region can live in peace, practice our faith, and work on achieving a model nation which promotes equality, freedom, and brotherhood for all its citizens.

The two nation theory and the movement for Pakistan were definitely ideologies and one had to ascribe to them to be part of the Pakistan movement.

After independence, Pakistan and Pakistanis began being treated as an ethnic and racial group by Non-Muslim countries. For example the hateful epithet ‘Paaki’ is racial in design, and not at all ideological.

Sometime after 2000s, Pakistanis, esp in America, began to distance themselves from their country of origin and ascribe to the term ‘Desi,’ whose meaning was changed to incorporate Indians and Bengalis. Desi originally is a term only for Pakistanis (Des, Pardes) or Pakistani products (Desi egg, ghee, chickens, etc.)

So we have a whole generation of descendants of Pakistanis in the diaspora who have no connection or desire to associate with Pakistan. They grew up intentionally avoiding Pakistani languages, Pakistani immigrants (besides relatives,) many have intermarried with people of Non-Pakistani origin, and they have no concept of the history/struggle/politics of the Pakistani homeland.

There is no doubt that Pakistani is now a robust and strong nationality, which has gained a new lease on life thanks to PTI and Pakistani military, however besides this the question needs to be asked.

Is Pakistani a racial, ethnic identity or is it an ideological choice?

For those who do not care for Pakistan (new generation of the diaspora) and those who actively fight against our state (like Husain Haqqani, Altaf Hussain, Rehman Khan, etc.,) are they Pakistanis?

Well western countries are ignorant AF and you should know that. Simply refuse to fill out those boxes and when they say its mandatory say it's racist and ignorant for "pakistani" to be a race.

I would say its a awakening of the enlightened soul gaining insight into the stupendous ordinary workings of life itself yet remaining completely ignorant to the stark reality that exists outside normal dimensions which do not hold any defined space.

You could've worded this alot simpler

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Claims made by British colonialists with inconclusive, vague and spineless evidence and then parroted by Rajput nationalists. Such claims have been largely dropped in the academic field.

I have no issue with these historic polities in any way connected to the Rajputs, who are another people that are proportionally much more in Pakistan than they are in India, however, to say so is simply infactual and as a man of history, I will not allow such perversion of history.

The Rajputs who ruled the Pakistan region are still here in Pakistan. We never left this area and are very much a fabric of this great nation.

Many of us are descended from Central Asian Iranic nomads who moved into this area around 1 BC, after defeating and supplanting the Greeks.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Not a Pakistani, and not participating in this discussion, but wanted to point out that the quoted part of your post shows how desperate you guys have become in removing any trace of your association with your heritage.
'Desi' is by no means a Pakistani term, its origin is sanskrit and Indians were the first south asians to claim this term (right around the time the infamous 'dot busters' and other white hate groups had started attacking the 'Patels' in New Jersey in the 1950s and 60s). Please don't claim sanskrit as yours as well.

Oh ignorance is bliss, eh?
Sanskrit a language that was created in the lands of modern day Pakistan by the people that call themselves Pakistanis. Every heard of Taxila

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Well western countries are ignorant AF and you should know that. Simply refuse to fill out those boxes and when they say its mandatory say it's racist and ignorant for "pakistani" to be a race.

I always put ‘Asian’ in the race column.

I know a lot of misguided Arabs, Persians, Indians, Sikhs who put Caucasian. Lol

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Are you fucking kidding me? Sanskrit was born in Pakistan! Read some history. Your upper caste Hindus are basically products of men from Pakistan moving to Ganges and producing children with local native women (captives basically).

Shhh dont break their dreams.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

The Rajputs who ruled the Pakistan region are still here in Pakistan. We never left this area and are very much a fabric of this great nation.

Many of us are descended from Central Asian Iranic nomads who moved into this area around 1 BC, after defeating and supplanting the Greeks.

I am pretty sure he is referring to the Shahis and the Chach Dynasty, which have been connected to the Rajputs by early British "ethnologists" on baseless grounds.

My reply was directed to that context, other than that, I do not doubt that there were many Rajput dynasties and polities that resided in the Indus Region.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

I always put ‘Asian’ in the race column.

I know a lot of misguided Arabs, Persians, Indians, Sikhs who put Caucasian. Lol

To westerners the term Asian means Chinese and Japanese. Dont forget thses people have been barbaric for most of their time on this world. They are relatively new to the ideas of culture and different people. Just look at the way they act, no sense of culture or respect

Dude I have read enough, please quote the research that backs your hypothesis. You think our border was stopping any mixing from happening on your side? Eastern part of your country and north-west India are racially the same. Western Pakistan is where the central asian gene traits start showing up more. Are you claiming that vedic Sanskrit was developed in a single region? avestan and other Indo-aryan languages when came to the second urbanisation move (movement of central asian populations from the Indus to the gangetic plains) is when Vedic sanskrit was thought to have been written in (Rig veda). My name has more Sanskrit than in all of Pakistan, also are you claiming that Pakistanis have hindu ancestry by any chance?

Central Asian? Hahahaha
Muffin that's northern Pakistan, western Pakistan is Iranian or Arab

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

It’s such a sublime ideology that two thirds of the subcontinental Muslims have completely missed it!!! One third has voluntarily assumed the socioeconomic status of that lower than the Dalits, who carry portable toilets on their heads!!! Another third has ecstatically gone back to the absolute subjugation on the basis of the “Permanent Settlement” under the Hindu Raj!!! And, that too for the second time....

As for Pak, she’s on her usual course of fighting it out at all plausible Dunyavi fronts against the most of the known world....